Theos-Talk Archives (February 2005 Message tt00105)

Hallo all,

My views are:

Konstantin Zaitzev wrote about HPB:
"The time has shown that this strategy of criticize was erroneous,
because it provoked hostility not of the Church only, but of most
other
schools, primarily spiritualists. Till now many esoteric schools don't
take theosophy seriously, and are even hostile to it. It is probably
a bad karma of criticize.
Secondly, HPB criticized rather doctrines than people."


MY ANSWER:
1.
I am puzzled. I did not understand that answer from you - Konstantin Zaitzev 
.
I ask politely:
What "strategy of criticize" are you talking about?
Was HPB wrong in her clearly very critical remarks about dead-letter 
teachings, the dogamtic christian churches and other religious kinds of 
dogmatism, various spiritualistic sorceries and phallisism etc. etc. ??? Was 
it wrong to tell the wrong-doers about what they did ???
If so, I would like a clear answer on this.

2.
Was HPB wrong when she said the following ??? (If so, I would like a clear 
answer on this.) :

"There are four (out of the many other) names of the various kinds of 
Esoteric Knowledge or Sciences given, even in the esoteric Purānas. There is 
(1) Yajna-Vidya,1 knowledge of the occult powers awakened in Nature by the 
performance of certain religious ceremonies and rites. (2) Maha-vidya, the 
"great knowledge," the magic of the Kabalists and of the Tantrika worship, 
often Sorcery of the worst description. (3) Guhya-Vidya, knowledge of the 
mystic powers residing in Sound (Ether), hence in the Mantras (chanted 
prayers or incantations) and depending on the rhythm and melody used; in 
other words a magical performance based on Knowledge of the Forces of Nature 
and their correlation; and (4) ATMA-VIDYA, a term which is translated simply 
"knowledge of the Soul," true Wisdom by the Orientalists, but which means 
far more.
This last is the only kind of Occultism that any theosophist who admires 
Light on the Path, and who would be wise and unselfish, ought to strive 
after. All the rest is some branch of the "Occult Sciences," i.e., arts 
based on the knowledge of the ultimate essence of all things in the Kingdoms 
of Nature--such as minerals, plants and animals--hence of things pertaining 
to the realm of material nature, however invisible that essence may be, and 
howsoever much it has hitherto eluded the grasp of Science. Alchemy, 
Astrology, Occult Physiology, Chiromancy, exist in Nature and the exact 
Sciences--perhaps so called, because they are found in this age of 
paradoxical philosophies the reverse--have already discovered not a few of 
the secrets of the above arts. But clairvoyance, symbolised in India as the 
"Eye of Siva," called in Japan, "Infinite Vision," is not Hypnotism, the 
illegitimate son of Mesmerism, and is not to be acquired by such arts. All 
the others may be mastered and results obtained, whether good, bad or 
indifferent; but Atma-Vidya sets small value on them. It includes them all 
and may even use them occasionally, but it does so after purifying them of 
their dross, for beneficent purposes, and taking care to deprive them of 
every element of selfish motive. Let us explain: Any man or woman can set 
himself or herself to study one or all of the above specified "Occult Arts" 
without any great previous preparation, and even without adopting any too 
restraining mode of life. One could even dispense with any lofty standard of 
morality. In the last case, of course, ten to one the student would blossom 
into a very decent kind of sorcerer, and tumble down headlong into black 
magic. But what can this matter? The Voodoos and the Dugpas eat, drink and 
are merry over heca-tombs of victims of their infernal arts. And so do the 
amiable gentlemen vivisectionists and the diploma-ed "Hypnotizers" of the 
Faculties of Medicine; tube only difference between the two classes being 
that the Voodoos and Dugpas are conscious, and the Charcot-Richet crew 
unconscious, Sorcerers. Thus, since both have to reap the fruits of their 
labours and achievements in the black art, the Western practitioners should 
not have the punishment and reputation without the profits and enjoyments 
they may get therefrom. For we say it again, hypnotism and vivisection as 
practiced in such schools, are schools, are Sorcery pure and simple, minus a 
knowledge that the Voodoos and Dugpas enjoy, and which no Charcot-Richet can 
procure for himself in fifty years of hard study and experimental 
observation. Let then those who will dabble in magic, whether they 
understand its nature or not, but who find the rules imposed upon students 
too hard, and who, therefore lay Atma-Vidya or Occultism aside--go without 
it. Let them become magicians by all means, even though they do become 
Voodoos and Dugpas for the next ten incarnations.

But the interest of our readers will probably centre on those who are 
invincibly attracted towards the "Occult," yet who neither realise the true 
nature of what they aspire towards, nor have they become passion-proof, far 
less truly unselfish."
------- 
http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/OccultismVersusTheOccultArts.htm -------

3.
So all of the later theosophical leaders and authors followed HPB's advice 
and did not put aside the esoteric doctrine of Atma-Vidya?
Or was phallic thought-patterns, - dead-letter teachings and christian 
dogmatism just so very very important, that HPB's teachings should be PUT 
ASIDE?
(If so, I ask the readers to please clarify their stance.)

Would it be fair to judge the various wellknown theosophists teachings and 
activities on the spiritual impact they have created upon other people?
I think so. We shall know them on their fruits.

The following by HPB's hand might serve the readers well - so to compare 
with our friend Konstantin Zaitzev answer.
But also to compare with the massmedias and various spiritual authors of a 
more or less legal kind.
--- Black Magic in Science ---
"Result on Karmic lines: every Hypnotist, every man of Science, however 
well-meaning and honorable, once he has allowed himself to become the 
unconscious instructor of one who learns but to abuse the sacred science, 
becomes, of course, morally the confederate of every crime committed by this 
means.
Such is the consequence of public "Hypnotic" experiments which thus lead to, 
and virtually are, BLACK MAGIC."

http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-sio/sio-bkmg.htm (HPB 1890)


4.
Is it also true the the Seeker is on a "NEED to Know basis".

Life is art and design.
What you experience and absorb, that is what shapes your Path as a seeker.

5.
As HPB said in the above: " ten to one the student would blossom into a very 
decent kind of sorcerer, and tumble down headlong into black magic".
And that has never happened in all of the various theosophical groups 
history since 1875 ???
I think it has happened to a certain extend.
And this is why we have to relate to this even today - and be aware of this 
problems potential existence.



Now if the huge majority neo-theosophical defenders still wants to raise 
their weapons against the Truth, - it is their choice.


Did this help you?

from
M. Sufilight with peace and love...



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Konstantin Zaitzev" <kay_ziatz@yahoo.com>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 9:48 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: Answer to Leadbeater and bailey are a problem part 
I




--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Alaya" <lalaya7@y...> wrote:

Hello Alaya,


[Cut short by M. Sufilight]