Theos-Talk Archives (September 2004 Message tt00836)

Hallo Erica and all,

My views are:

1.
You are now taking up a new subject from another thread.
Maybe your words should have been forwarded at another thread.
(But allright, this maybe tell us more about the limitations of the use of a
Yahoo forum. Privately to Eldon: Do you understand this Eldon? A PHPbb forum
?)

2.
Another thing Erica.
As far as I can read your below email, - then All your below questions are a
deflections from what I just stated in my previous email about where the
limits to TS involvement in political activitites were and aught to be
TODAY. - Such a deflection of yours will not change my standpoint - and the
facts about what Blavatsky - officially said. And it aught neither to change
other readers views.

It just shows me, that you are unwilling to relate to the facts on TS
limitations to involvements in politics as they were presented by Blavatsky.

3.
Allright, I will be polite and answer your questions:
But, I thought, that we all knew that the Mahatmas had/has one single
purpose called ALTRUSISM and that this is theosophy at its core. So that was
basis they acted from when they contacted Hume and Sinnett. (I think you
refer to the Mahatma Letter 78 at
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-78.htm )

They (Hume and Sinnett) were the best available due to time, place and
circunstances to the task of Altruism / theosophy. That some Seekers would
fail to recognise this as the Main fundamental reason on the level of a
Mahatma - is not my fault. The readers may speculate over and over about
these Mahatma activities, but such specualtions are highly futile as long as
they themselves are not Masters or near their level of conscuisness.
Many Seekers are sometimes to a certain extend being prepared by the Masters
before they get accepted as Chelas.
(I might email and short text about this within a day or two.)

To deepen this view I say: My view on the Mahatmas activities back then
is, - that maybe it was more a social stragey and a strategy against
corruption in society and government - THAN it was (or is) a politically
fruitless debate within TS where one makes comparative studies - and
political quarrels. Remember the Mahatma KH (or Morya) in the Mahatma Letter
78 was very unofficial about his views. As Blavatsky said, - The
Theosophical Society is NOT a politcal party.

(And I also ask: Do any of you think, that this Mahatma Letter 78 was
intended to be made public? This particular Mahatma Letter was - made
official when ? Was it about 30 years later at a time when Besant was too
heavily involved with politics?)



4.
On Political Strategies
If "social compassionate activities" the same as what the words "political
strategies" covers then we agree. But it is not so, is it ?
---

5. Blavatsky's political involvement within TS and outside of TS
Blavatsky, as far as I know, never published the Mahatma Letters when they
aught to remain unofficial.
Being able to communicate what is theosophy is what we call Altruism.
The emotional beginners quite often needs a different kind of teaching than
the Chelas or the intellectuals.
Hume and Sinnett was what I will call at least intellectuals of their time.
May I ask in what sense was Blavatsky involved with political activities -
when compared to Annie Besant ?
(Did Blavatsky's activities damage or help the theosophical cause?)
And is it not the leadership of TS and its activitites we aught to be
concerned with when talking about these issue?

As Blavatsky said:
The Theosophical Society is NOT a politcal party.
The cause of The Theosophical Society is Altrusim.


I do hope this helped.

from
M. Sufilight with peace and love...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Erica Letzerich" <eletzerich@y...>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 4:00 PM
Subject: Theos-World Re: CORRECTION: Can theos-talk look at the world?


> Why do you think the Mahatmas were contacting Sinnet and also so
> interested in Hume? Because of Sinnet's spiritual potencies? Or
> because Sinnet was the editor of one important newspaper and could
> influence positive the cause, causing a stronger impact in the
> society at the period? Is this not political strategies? The Mahatma
> KH and M. were also involved in politics, and this can be traced in
> their letters.
> So dont focus on Annie Besant only, because a carefull study of the
> history of the T.S. will point out that many were involved in
> politics and during a period of time also Blavatsky, or why she
> would have been in a war with Garibaldi?
>
> Erica
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten N. Olesen" <global-
> theosophy@a...> wrote:
> >
> > Hallo Erica and all,
> >
> > My views are:
> >
> > My views are in the below using ***.
> >
> >
> > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Erica Letzerich" <eletzerich@y...>
> > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 2:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: CORRECTION: Can theos-talk look at
> the world?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Morten,
> >
> > So you tell me is the T.S Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian etc
> because
> > some members may make comparative studies of the above religions
> and many
> > others? Comparative studies also related to politics would not
> create a
> > label in the T.S. as much the studies of religion and philosophy
> did not
> > create a label.
> > Blavatsky mentions something that did not change, the T.S. would
> not ever
> > get involved with politics. But it is an individual right to get
> involved
> > with politics and that was aplied for Besant too.
> > ***
> > Yes agreed, if one doesn't damage the theosophical cause. (Think
> about it.)
> > That was why I agrred upon fighting "corruption in government".
> > If this happens, one should be held accountable for doing so.
> > I said in the previous email, that Annie Besant damaged the
> theosophical
> > cause - although I am sure she did it unintentionally.
> > Blavatsky quite interestingly states in her book the Key to
> Theosophy
> > (Section 12 ):
> > "Moreover, political action must necessarily vary with the
> circumstances of
> > the time and with the
> > idiosyncracies of individuals. "
> > ...and few lines later...
> > "As a society they can
> > only act together in matters which are common to all -- that is, in
> > Theosophy itself; as individuals, each is left perfectly free to
> follow out
> > his or her particular line of political thought and action, so
> long as this
> > does not conflict with Theosophical principles or hurt the
> Theosophical
> > Society."
> >
> > That is why I think Annie Besant went too far.
> > Do I need to repeat it one more time?
> > ***
> >
> >
> > Freedom of The Society
> >
> > 'The Theosophical Society, while cooperating with all other bodies
> whose
> > aims and activities make such cooperation possible, is and must
> remain an
> > organisation entirely independent of them, not committed to any
> objects save
> > its own, and intent on developing its own work on the broadest and
> most
> > inclusive lines, so as to move towards its own goal as indicated
> in and by
> > the pursuit of those objects and that Divine Wisdom which in the
> abstract is
> > implicit in the title, The Theosophical Society.
> >
> > Since Universal Brotherhood and the Wisdom are undefined and
> unlimited, and
> > since there is complete freedom for each and every member of the
> Society in
> > thought and action, the Society seeks ever to maintain its own
> distinctive
> > and unique character by remaining free of affiliation or
> identification with
> > any other organisation. '
> >
> > - Resolution passed by the General Council of The Theosophical
> Society,
> > 1949
> >
> > ***
> > Quoting an excerpt from the above:
> > "Society seeks ever to maintain its own distinctive and unique
> character by
> > remaining free of affiliation or identification with any other
> > organisation."
> >
> > Erica, You, just tell that to all those who find Annie Besant to
> be the
> > Mother of India.
> >
> > -------
> > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ****
> >
> > "Morten N. Olesen" <global-theosophy@a...> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Erica and all,
> >
> > The below are how TS related to Politics before Besant came and
> changed it
> > all.
> >
> > Letter I -- 1888 - Second Annual Convention -- April 22-23, by H.
> P.
> > Blavatsky:
> >
> > "I am confident that, when the real nature of Theosophy is
> understood, the
> > prejudice against it, now so unfortunately prevalent, will die out.
> > Theosophists are of necessity the friends of all movements in the
> world,
> > whether intellectual or simply practical, for the amelioration of
> the
> > condition of mankind. We are the friends of all those who fight
> against
> > drunkenness, against cruelty to animals, against injustice to
> women, against
> > corruption in society or in government, although we do not meddle
> in
> > politics. We are the friends of those who exercise practical
> charity, who
> > seek to lift a little of the tremendous weight of misery that is
> crushing
> > down the poor. But, in our quality of Theosophists, we cannot
> engage in any
> > one of these great works in particular. As individuals we may do
> so, but as
> > Theosophists we have a larger, more important, and much more
> difficult work
> > to do. "
> >
> > M. Sufilights comment:
> > So how can we do a comparative study of politics while we not
> meddle with
> > politics ? I would really like to know that.
> > As I see it, we can only do so when we fight corruption in
> government. And
> > while we relate to the below remarks on politics,
> > which Blavatsky formulated in The Key to Theosophy.
> > She says: "as a society it takes absolutely no part in any
> national or party
> > politics".
> > So how to make comparative studies in our present informations
> society while
> > NOT taking "part in any national or party politics" ???
> > I find this to be an important question to answer. I think it can
> only be
> > done while fighting corruption in government.
> > And how do we define the word corruption? And how did Blavatsky
> define it?
> >
> >
> > -------
> > "The Key to Theosophy" written by Blavatsky (Section )
> >
> > POLITICS AND SOCIAL REFORM
> >
> >
> > "Unconcerned about politics; hostile to the insane dreams of
> Socialism and
> > Communism, which it abhors--as both are but disguised conspiracies
> of brutal
> > force and sluggishness against honest labor the Society cares but
> little
> > about the outward human management of the material world." HPB
> > --"What are the Theosophists ?" Theost. Oct 1879, p. 7
> >
> >
> > "...Work, therefore, to bring about the moral regeneration of the
> cultured
> > but far more immoral classes before you attempt to do the same for
> our
> > ignorant younger Brethren. The latter was undertaken years ago,
> and is
> > carried on to this day, yet with no perceptible good results. It
> is not
> > evident that the reason for this lies in the fact that [except]
> for a few
> > earnest, sincere and all-sacrificing workers in that field, the
> great
> > majority of the volunteers consists of those same frivolous, ultra-
> selfish
> > classes, who 'play at charity' and whose ideas of the amelioration
> of the
> > physical and moral status of the poor are confined to the hobby
> that money
> > and the Bible alone can do it."
> > HPB -- "The Tidal Wave" Lucifer, Nov. 1889
> >
> >
> >
> > THE RELATIONS OF THE T. S. TO POLITICAL REFORMS.
> >
> >
> > ENQUIRER. The Theosophical Society is not, then, a political
> organization?
> >
> > THEOSOPHIST. Certainly not. It is international in the highest
> sense in that
> > its members comprise men and women of all races, creeds, and forms
> of
> > thought, who work together for one object, the improvement of
> humanity; but
> > as a society it takes absolutely no part in any national or party
> politics.
> >
> > ENQUIRER. Why is this?
> >
> > THEOSOPHIST. Just for the reasons I have mentioned. Moreover,
> political
> > action must necessarily vary with the circumstances of the time
> and with the
> > idiosyncracies of individuals. While from the very nature of their
> position
> > as Theosophists the members of the T. S. are agreed on the
> principles of
> > Theosophy, or they would not belong to the society at all, it does
> not
> > thereby follow that they agree on every other subject. As a
> society they can
> > only act together in matters which are common to all -- that is, in
> > Theosophy itself; as individuals, each is left perfectly free to
> follow out
> > his or her particular line of political thought and action, so
> long as this
> > does not conflict with Theosophical principles or hurt the
> Theosophical
> > Society.
> >
> > [ ...TRY TO READ THE ABOVE AGAIN...ERICA ]
> >
> >
> > -------
> >
> > So, when reading the above, I think that Blavatsky forwarded more
> than one
> > view upon how Theosophists relates to politics.
> > And this is interesting.
> > But all in all when we view the writings of Blavatsky
> chronologically, then
> > what I get from it is, that the closet we can come to discussing
> politics is
> > that we "fight corruption in government" by relating this fight to
> > theosophical principles.
> >
> > Blavatsky also quite interestingly states:
> > "Moreover, political action must necessarily vary with the
> circumstances of
> > the time and with the
> > idiosyncracies of individuals. "
> > ...and few lines later...
> > "As a society they can
> > only act together in matters which are common to all -- that is, in
> > Theosophy itself; as individuals, each is left perfectly free to
> follow out
> > his or her particular line of political thought and action, so
> long as this
> > does not conflict with Theosophical principles or hurt the
> Theosophical
> > Society."
> >
> > And that is why I think Annie Besant went to far.
> > She did hurt - although for sure unintentionally - The
> Theosophical Society
> > !
> >
> > -------
> >
> > So Erica, I conclude, that your emailed words has to take the
> above issues
> > into careful consideration before any comparative study in politics
> > are being released within the TS. That is if you are not denying
> the old
> > woman Blavatsky her say. One who worked togehter with the Masters.
> >
> >
> > from
> > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Erica Letzerich"
> > To:
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: CORRECTION: Can theos-talk look at
> the world?
> >
> >
> > > The second object of the T.S. is the comparative studies of
> religion,
> > philosophy and science, politics are also a science, so any
> discussion
> > related to politic systems are in perfect accordance with the
> objects of the
> > T.S. Also the first object of the T.S. Universal Brotherhood is
> also close
> > related to the society, so to discuss about social problems and
> politics
> > under the light of the perennial philosophy it seems to me to be
> in perfect
> > harmony with the objects of the T.S.
> > >
> > > Erica
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Erica Letzerich .'.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>