Theos-Talk Archives (September 2004 Message tt00838)

Here a quote from KH:

A crisis, in a certain sense, is upon us now, and must be met. I 
might say two crises -- one, the Society's, the other for Tibet. 
For, I may tell you in confidence, that Russia is gradually massing 
her forces for a future invasion of that country under the pretext 
of a Chinese War. If she does not succeed it will be due to us...
Letter No. 4

So how do you think they would interfer? This is not a matter 
related to politics? I am not taking a subject to other subject, is 
very well related whatever I mentioned. The T.S has not been 
involved in politics and will not, but many of its members and also 
founders as so to say: Blavatsky, Besant and also the Mahatmas were 
clear involved with politics. 

The difference is Besant was open involved with politics, the 
Mahatmas we dont know much about them, but whatever we know give us 
clues that they were also involved in politics. Blavatsky as I 
mentioned before must also have been involved in politics or with 
what purpose she would fight beside Garibaldi. 
It is not my intention to change what Blavatsky said, but to sustain 
that every T.S. member has the individual right to be involved with 
politics, that the second object of the T.S. also include politic 
science as any other science. 

I was not questioning the purpose of the MAhatmas, that obviously 
was altruistic but I was saying that even the Mahatmas were 
contacting key persons that would help in the cause. So why they did 
not contact the Ze Cabbage that was living 1 km down from Sinnet's 
house and they contact Sinnet? Because Sinnet was the Editor of an 
important newspaper. Is this not strategy? Or did Sinnet had 
anything else special than just some influence at the time?

Now please in which level the political activities of Besant have 
damaged the T.S. ? Please I would like a detailed explanation on 
that. See that we are not discussing about the foundation of the 
Order of the star of the East. You are saying that the political 
actions of Besant have harmed the society. So please give samples 
that may sustain your affirmation.

Erica




--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten N. Olesen" <global-
theosophy@a...> wrote:
> Hallo Erica and all,
> 
> My views are:
> 
> 1.
> You are now taking up a new subject from another thread.
> Maybe your words should have been forwarded at another thread.
> (But allright, this maybe tell us more about the limitations of 
the use of a
> Yahoo forum. Privately to Eldon: Do you understand this Eldon? A 
PHPbb forum
> ?)
> 
> 2.
> Another thing Erica.
> As far as I can read your below email, - then All your below 
questions are a
> deflections from what I just stated in my previous email about 
where the
> limits to TS involvement in political activitites were and aught 
to be
> TODAY. - Such a deflection of yours will not change my standpoint -
and the
> facts about what Blavatsky - officially said. And it aught neither 
to change
> other readers views.
> 
> It just shows me, that you are unwilling to relate to the facts on 
TS
> limitations to involvements in politics as they were presented by 
Blavatsky.
> 
> 3.
> Allright, I will be polite and answer your questions:
> But, I thought, that we all knew that the Mahatmas had/has one 
single
> purpose called ALTRUSISM and that this is theosophy at its core. 
So that was
> basis they acted from when they contacted Hume and Sinnett. (I 
think you
> refer to the Mahatma Letter 78 at
> http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-78.htm )
> 
> They (Hume and Sinnett) were the best available due to time, place 
and
> circunstances to the task of Altruism / theosophy. That some 
Seekers would
> fail to recognise this as the Main fundamental reason on the level 
of a
> Mahatma - is not my fault. The readers may speculate over and over 
about
> these Mahatma activities, but such specualtions are highly futile 
as long as
> they themselves are not Masters or near their level of 
conscuisness.
> Many Seekers are sometimes to a certain extend being prepared by 
the Masters
> before they get accepted as Chelas.
> (I might email and short text about this within a day or two.)
> 
> To deepen this view I say: My view on the Mahatmas activities back 
then
> is, - that maybe it was more a social stragey and a strategy 
against
> corruption in society and government - THAN it was (or is) a 
politically
> fruitless debate within TS where one makes comparative studies - 
and
> political quarrels. Remember the Mahatma KH (or Morya) in the 
Mahatma Letter
> 78 was very unofficial about his views. As Blavatsky said, - The
> Theosophical Society is NOT a politcal party.
> 
> (And I also ask: Do any of you think, that this Mahatma Letter 78 
was
> intended to be made public? This particular Mahatma Letter was - 
made
> official when ? Was it about 30 years later at a time when Besant 
was too
> heavily involved with politics?)
> 
> 
> 
> 4.
> On Political Strategies
> If "social compassionate activities" the same as what the 
words "political
> strategies" covers then we agree. But it is not so, is it ?
> ---
> 
> 5. Blavatsky's political involvement within TS and outside of TS
> Blavatsky, as far as I know, never published the Mahatma Letters 
when they
> aught to remain unofficial.
> Being able to communicate what is theosophy is what we call 
Altruism.
> The emotional beginners quite often needs a different kind of 
teaching than
> the Chelas or the intellectuals.
> Hume and Sinnett was what I will call at least intellectuals of 
their time.
> May I ask in what sense was Blavatsky involved with political 
activities -
> when compared to Annie Besant ?
> (Did Blavatsky's activities damage or help the theosophical cause?)
> And is it not the leadership of TS and its activitites we aught to 
be
> concerned with when talking about these issue?
> 
> As Blavatsky said:
> The Theosophical Society is NOT a politcal party.
> The cause of The Theosophical Society is Altrusim.
> 
> 
> I do hope this helped.
> 
> from
> M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Erica Letzerich" <eletzerich@y...>
> To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 4:00 PM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: CORRECTION: Can theos-talk look at the 
world?
> 
> 
> > Why do you think the Mahatmas were contacting Sinnet and also so
> > interested in Hume? Because of Sinnet's spiritual potencies? Or
> > because Sinnet was the editor of one important newspaper and 
could
> > influence positive the cause, causing a stronger impact in the
> > society at the period? Is this not political strategies? The 
Mahatma
> > KH and M. were also involved in politics, and this can be traced 
in
> > their letters.
> > So dont focus on Annie Besant only, because a carefull study of 
the
> > history of the T.S. will point out that many were involved in
> > politics and during a period of time also Blavatsky, or why she
> > would have been in a war with Garibaldi?
> >
> > Erica
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten N. Olesen" <global-
> > theosophy@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hallo Erica and all,
> > >
> > > My views are:
> > >
> > > My views are in the below using ***.
> > >
> > >
> > > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Erica Letzerich" <eletzerich@y...>
> > > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 2:35 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: CORRECTION: Can theos-talk look at
> > the world?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Morten,
> > >
> > > So you tell me is the T.S Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian 
etc
> > because
> > > some members may make comparative studies of the above 
religions
> > and many
> > > others? Comparative studies also related to politics would not
> > create a
> > > label in the T.S. as much the studies of religion and 
philosophy
> > did not
> > > create a label.
> > > Blavatsky mentions something that did not change, the T.S. 
would
> > not ever
> > > get involved with politics. But it is an individual right to 
get
> > involved
> > > with politics and that was aplied for Besant too.
> > > ***
> > > Yes agreed, if one doesn't damage the theosophical cause. 
(Think
> > about it.)
> > > That was why I agrred upon fighting "corruption in government".
> > > If this happens, one should be held accountable for doing so.
> > > I said in the previous email, that Annie Besant damaged the
> > theosophical
> > > cause - although I am sure she did it unintentionally.
> > > Blavatsky quite interestingly states in her book the Key to
> > Theosophy
> > > (Section 12 ):
> > > "Moreover, political action must necessarily vary with the
> > circumstances of
> > > the time and with the
> > > idiosyncracies of individuals. "
> > > ...and few lines later...
> > > "As a society they can
> > > only act together in matters which are common to all -- that 
is, in
> > > Theosophy itself; as individuals, each is left perfectly free 
to
> > follow out
> > > his or her particular line of political thought and action, so
> > long as this
> > > does not conflict with Theosophical principles or hurt the
> > Theosophical
> > > Society."
> > >
> > > That is why I think Annie Besant went too far.
> > > Do I need to repeat it one more time?
> > > ***
> > >
> > >
> > > Freedom of The Society
> > >
> > > 'The Theosophical Society, while cooperating with all other 
bodies
> > whose
> > > aims and activities make such cooperation possible, is and must
> > remain an
> > > organisation entirely independent of them, not committed to any
> > objects save
> > > its own, and intent on developing its own work on the broadest 
and
> > most
> > > inclusive lines, so as to move towards its own goal as 
indicated
> > in and by
> > > the pursuit of those objects and that Divine Wisdom which in 
the
> > abstract is
> > > implicit in the title, The Theosophical Society.
> > >
> > > Since Universal Brotherhood and the Wisdom are undefined and
> > unlimited, and
> > > since there is complete freedom for each and every member of 
the
> > Society in
> > > thought and action, the Society seeks ever to maintain its own
> > distinctive
> > > and unique character by remaining free of affiliation or
> > identification with
> > > any other organisation. '
> > >
> > > - Resolution passed by the General Council of The 
Theosophical
> > Society,
> > > 1949
> > >
> > > ***
> > > Quoting an excerpt from the above:
> > > "Society seeks ever to maintain its own distinctive and unique
> > character by
> > > remaining free of affiliation or identification with any other
> > > organisation."
> > >
> > > Erica, You, just tell that to all those who find Annie Besant 
to
> > be the
> > > Mother of India.
> > >
> > > -------
> > > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ****
> > >
> > > "Morten N. Olesen" <global-theosophy@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Erica and all,
> > >
> > > The below are how TS related to Politics before Besant came and
> > changed it
> > > all.
> > >
> > > Letter I -- 1888 - Second Annual Convention -- April 22-23, by 
H.
> > P.
> > > Blavatsky:
> > >
> > > "I am confident that, when the real nature of Theosophy is
> > understood, the
> > > prejudice against it, now so unfortunately prevalent, will die 
out.
> > > Theosophists are of necessity the friends of all movements in 
the
> > world,
> > > whether intellectual or simply practical, for the amelioration 
of
> > the
> > > condition of mankind. We are the friends of all those who fight
> > against
> > > drunkenness, against cruelty to animals, against injustice to
> > women, against
> > > corruption in society or in government, although we do not 
meddle
> > in
> > > politics. We are the friends of those who exercise practical
> > charity, who
> > > seek to lift a little of the tremendous weight of misery that 
is
> > crushing
> > > down the poor. But, in our quality of Theosophists, we cannot
> > engage in any
> > > one of these great works in particular. As individuals we may 
do
> > so, but as
> > > Theosophists we have a larger, more important, and much more
> > difficult work
> > > to do. "
> > >
> > > M. Sufilights comment:
> > > So how can we do a comparative study of politics while we not
> > meddle with
> > > politics ? I would really like to know that.
> > > As I see it, we can only do so when we fight corruption in
> > government. And
> > > while we relate to the below remarks on politics,
> > > which Blavatsky formulated in The Key to Theosophy.
> > > She says: "as a society it takes absolutely no part in any
> > national or party
> > > politics".
> > > So how to make comparative studies in our present informations
> > society while
> > > NOT taking "part in any national or party politics" ???
> > > I find this to be an important question to answer. I think it 
can
> > only be
> > > done while fighting corruption in government.
> > > And how do we define the word corruption? And how did Blavatsky
> > define it?
> > >
> > >
> > > -------
> > > "The Key to Theosophy" written by Blavatsky (Section )
> > >
> > > POLITICS AND SOCIAL REFORM
> > >
> > >
> > > "Unconcerned about politics; hostile to the insane dreams of
> > Socialism and
> > > Communism, which it abhors--as both are but disguised 
conspiracies
> > of brutal
> > > force and sluggishness against honest labor the Society cares 
but
> > little
> > > about the outward human management of the material world." HPB
> > > --"What are the Theosophists ?" Theost. Oct 1879, p. 7
> > >
> > >
> > > "...Work, therefore, to bring about the moral regeneration of 
the
> > cultured
> > > but far more immoral classes before you attempt to do the same 
for
> > our
> > > ignorant younger Brethren. The latter was undertaken years ago,
> > and is
> > > carried on to this day, yet with no perceptible good results. 
It
> > is not
> > > evident that the reason for this lies in the fact that [except]
> > for a few
> > > earnest, sincere and all-sacrificing workers in that field, the
> > great
> > > majority of the volunteers consists of those same frivolous, 
ultra-
> > selfish
> > > classes, who 'play at charity' and whose ideas of the 
amelioration
> > of the
> > > physical and moral status of the poor are confined to the hobby
> > that money
> > > and the Bible alone can do it."
> > > HPB -- "The Tidal Wave" Lucifer, Nov. 1889
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > THE RELATIONS OF THE T. S. TO POLITICAL REFORMS.
> > >
> > >
> > > ENQUIRER. The Theosophical Society is not, then, a political
> > organization?
> > >
> > > THEOSOPHIST. Certainly not. It is international in the highest
> > sense in that
> > > its members comprise men and women of all races, creeds, and 
forms
> > of
> > > thought, who work together for one object, the improvement of
> > humanity; but
> > > as a society it takes absolutely no part in any national or 
party
> > politics.
> > >
> > > ENQUIRER. Why is this?
> > >
> > > THEOSOPHIST. Just for the reasons I have mentioned. Moreover,
> > political
> > > action must necessarily vary with the circumstances of the time
> > and with the
> > > idiosyncracies of individuals. While from the very nature of 
their
> > position
> > > as Theosophists the members of the T. S. are agreed on the
> > principles of
> > > Theosophy, or they would not belong to the society at all, it 
does
> > not
> > > thereby follow that they agree on every other subject. As a
> > society they can
> > > only act together in matters which are common to all -- that 
is, in
> > > Theosophy itself; as individuals, each is left perfectly free 
to
> > follow out
> > > his or her particular line of political thought and action, so
> > long as this
> > > does not conflict with Theosophical principles or hurt the
> > Theosophical
> > > Society.
> > >
> > > [ ...TRY TO READ THE ABOVE AGAIN...ERICA ]
> > >
> > >
> > > -------
> > >
> > > So, when reading the above, I think that Blavatsky forwarded 
more
> > than one
> > > view upon how Theosophists relates to politics.
> > > And this is interesting.
> > > But all in all when we view the writings of Blavatsky
> > chronologically, then
> > > what I get from it is, that the closet we can come to 
discussing
> > politics is
> > > that we "fight corruption in government" by relating this 
fight to
> > > theosophical principles.
> > >
> > > Blavatsky also quite interestingly states:
> > > "Moreover, political action must necessarily vary with the
> > circumstances of
> > > the time and with the
> > > idiosyncracies of individuals. "
> > > ...and few lines later...
> > > "As a society they can
> > > only act together in matters which are common to all -- that 
is, in
> > > Theosophy itself; as individuals, each is left perfectly free 
to
> > follow out
> > > his or her particular line of political thought and action, so
> > long as this
> > > does not conflict with Theosophical principles or hurt the
> > Theosophical
> > > Society."
> > >
> > > And that is why I think Annie Besant went to far.
> > > She did hurt - although for sure unintentionally - The
> > Theosophical Society
> > > !
> > >
> > > -------
> > >
> > > So Erica, I conclude, that your emailed words has to take the
> > above issues
> > > into careful consideration before any comparative study in 
politics
> > > are being released within the TS. That is if you are not 
denying
> > the old
> > > woman Blavatsky her say. One who worked togehter with the 
Masters.
> > >
> > >
> > > from
> > > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Erica Letzerich"
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 9:35 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: CORRECTION: Can theos-talk look at
> > the world?
> > >
> > >
> > > > The second object of the T.S. is the comparative studies of
> > religion,
> > > philosophy and science, politics are also a science, so any
> > discussion
> > > related to politic systems are in perfect accordance with the
> > objects of the
> > > T.S. Also the first object of the T.S. Universal Brotherhood is
> > also close
> > > related to the society, so to discuss about social problems and
> > politics
> > > under the light of the perennial philosophy it seems to me to 
be
> > in perfect
> > > harmony with the objects of the T.S.
> > > >
> > > > Erica
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Erica Letzerich .'.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >