Theos-Talk Archives (September 2004 Message tt00682)

Still you did not answer my question:

Which earlier documents A.Schachter refers too? Maybe he refers to 
early documents of your outsiders? On in your list of outsiders some 
are going to be insiders?
 
Also you did not consider other point I wrote:

The Kabeirion mysteries were held in many areas of Greece not only 
Thebes. In Imbros the Kabeirion mysteries were connected to Aries,in 
Thessaloniki they also found an archeological site referring to the 
Kabereirion Mysteries of Thessaloniki. Would that mean that the 
KAbeirion mysteries were probably started in Thessaloniki?
 
Why any arqueologist did not wrote a theory that Thessaloniki was 
the original base of the Kabeirion mysteries? MAy be because they 
were considering the information of some outsiders?
 
My point of view is not fundamentalist, and if you consider Orpheus, 
for sample an outsider you know nothing of the Greek culture. 
 
If you hold the view that thousands of years of Greek tradition  
have base on fundamentalism, and some theory made up by an 
arqueologist will erase it, you are wrong.
 
By the way I quote Blavatsky because this is a forum related to the 
theosophical circles. But I can stick with the quotes of your list 
of outsiders: Orpheus, Herodotos etc. 
 
And you stick with your list of insider the arqueologist, any way I 
dont even remember his name.
 
Now have you ever been in Samuthrace, do you know that is a very 
difficult Island? Do you know that many people die there in 
accidents, and someone has really to know climbing if want to 
explore some other areas of the island. It is not an easy place for 
arqueological investigations. except the area of the temple and 
other few areas around the sea. 
 
Erica
 
 
You say:
Stesimbrotos, Herodotos, Mnaseas and those you quote are considerred 
outsiders.

SO Orpheus and he might also be considered an outsider but 
A.Schachter is considered an insider?

"We can confirm that the Kabiroi were father and son, for the
Theban Kabiroi appear in the earliest documents as Kabiros and 
Pals,the latter occasionally being referred to as the Pais of 
Kabiros; that is, the son.”

Which earlier documents he refers too?

The first systematic excavations on Samothrace were conducted by the 
Austrian A. Conze, in 1873 and 1875. His work was not only limited 
to Samuthrace but also Lemnos and Imbros islands. He found in one of 
this islands a plaque that says: The Great Gods are the Kabeirion.

The Kabeirion mysteries were held in many areas of Greece not only 
Thebes. In Imbros the Kabeirion mysteries were connected to Aries,in 
Thessaloniki they also found an archeological site referring to the 
Kabereirion Mysteries of Thessaloniki. Also it was believed that 
Minoans and Trojan were practicing the Kabeirion mysteries.


I did not mention in any of my e-mails that they found archeological
evidences in Samuthrace. The Mysteries of this island are still very
enigmatic. But ancient writers they give us clear clues about the
nature of their mysteries and the origin of the Kabeirion. You wish
to hold a theory of an arqueologists it is your right. I do consider
the writings of Orpheus, Herodotos and many others valuable material
that give us some hints of the past.

Erica Letzerich





--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "worlduni_news" 
<worlduni_news@y...> wrote:
> Stesimbrotos, Herodotos, Mnaseas and those you quote are 
considerred
> outsiders. Like today people, also people in the past often wrote 
> fiction. And just like today just because something is written it 
> doesn't proof that it is true without other evidence to 
substantiate 
> it.
> 
> The nature of the Kabiroi was never fully understood by Greek 
> commentators, and from the earliest times they were confused with 
> the `Great Gods' of Samothrace, something different altogether.
> 
> If in such a case you are not able to point to any archeological 
or 
> other 'evidence' and just quote the 19th century books by 
> Blavatsly,then this is the same as a fundamentalist Christian 
> quoting the Bible or a Muslim quoting the Koran as 'scientific 
> evidence'or/and archeological 'facts'.
> 
> The only, concrete evidence found to date (2004) is the Kabirion is
> about six kilometres west of Thebes, in the low range of hills 
south
> of the Teneric Plain. In the Plain, at a point about eight
> kilometres west of Thebes and three north-west of the Kabirion
> valley, a cemetery with graves of the Late Archaic and Classical
> periods reveals the existence in the neighbourhood of a substantial
> settlement: this could have been the city about which Pausanias was
> told, but which had disappeared by his day. The sanctuary of 
Demeter
> Kabeiria and Kore has not been found, but it must have been between
> Thebes and the Kabirion.
> 
> The Kabirion valley is bordered on the west by a stream running
> north into the Teneric Plain. Originally this valley was bisected 
by
> a second stream coming from the east and flowing into the south-
> north stream. The northern slope of the valley forms an irregular
> amphitheatre. Roughly in the middle of the slope, and about half-
way
> up it, is an outcropping of natural rock.
> 
> In the earlier stages of the sanctuary's life building was
> restricted to the southern, more open, side of the stream. The main
> way into the valley throughout antiquity was at the north-west
> corner, beside the south-north stream. The person who has 
extensivly
> researched this place is been the city about which Pausanias was
> told, but which had disappeared by his day. The sanctuary of 
Demeter
> Kabeiria and Kore has not been found, but it must have been between
> Thebes and the Kabirion.
> 
> A balanced view I think is presented by A.Schachter in Cults of
> Boiotia 5: in BICS . Institute of Classical Studies, London, when 
he
> writes;
> 
> "We can confirm that the Kabiroi were father and son, for the
> Theban Kabiroi appear in the earliest documents as Kabiros and 
Pals,
> the latter occasionally being referred to as the Pais of Kabiros;
> that is, the son. In the cult aition as told to Pausanias, the
> recipients of the mystic rites were Prometheus and Aitnaios. Their
> role at the Theban Kabirion was to act as intermediaries between 
the
> goddess and her worshippers. In the story they are humans,
> Kabeiraioi (according to the manu¬scripts), but their own names are
> divine, and moreover are found in other Kabiric contexts. Although
> the aition is clearly influenced by the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, it
> may nevertheless mask the reality in which two Kabiroi, father and
> son, acted as the medium for initiates to approach the unnamed
> goddess. In cult, as opposed to myth, the Mysteries were celebrated
> in honour of the Kabiroi as well as the Mother. This apparent
> contradiction can be reconciled by regarding the Kabiroi as the
> goddess' servants, on a lower level, but still, by virtue of their
> connection with the rites, within the for¬bidden circle. Pausanias'
> history of the cult also refers to occasions on which the cult was
> interrupted and subsequently resumed under, as it were, new
> management; and elsewhere he mentions the Athenian Methapos as one
> who had organized the Mysteries at the Theban Kabirion. An
> examination of the archaeological evidence has allowed us to
> identify two of these breaks and reorganizations. And finally, the
> story Pausanias was told shows signs of how the cult was influenced
> by the mystery cults of Eleusis, Samothrace, and Lemnos. The
> sanctuary of Demeter Kabeiria and Kore, and indeed the very 
presence
> of Kore, were probably imported from Eleusis, while the story of 
how
> Demeter came to the city of the Kabeiraioi and gave the rites to 
two
> of them is straight out of the Homeric Hymn to Demeter; the names
> Pelarge and Telondes have a Samothracian ring about them, while
> Prometheus and Aitnaios seem to reflect the Lemnian cult"
> 
> Their nature was never fully understood by Greek commentators, and
> from the earliest times they were confused with the `Great Gods' of
> Samothrace.
> 
> Again, there is no archeological evidence in situ for Kabeiroi at
> Samothrace, you can check this with James R. McCredie, director of
> the excavations in Samothrace conducted by the Institute of Fine
> Arts of New York University for the American School of Classical
> Studies.
> 
> Another specialized person is (see his Current Projects);
> 
> http://www.arts.cornell.edu/Classics/Faculty/KMC.htm
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Erica Letzerich" 
> <eletzerich@y...> wrote:
> > THE KABEIRIA MYSTERIES
> > 
> > ...If one studies comparative Theogony, it is easy to find that 
> the 
> > secret of these "Fires" was taught in the Mysteries of every 
> ancient 
> > people, pre-eminently in Samothrace. There is not the smallest 
> doubt 
> > that the Kabeiri, the most arcane of all the ancient deities, 
gods 
> > and men, great deities and Titans, are identical with the 
Kumaras 
> > and Rudras headed by Kartikeya... [[Vol. 2, Page]] 86 THE SECRET 
> > DOCTRINE.