Theos-Talk Archives (December 2003 Message tt00078)

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
theosophy@a...> wrote:
> Hallo Netemara and all of you,
> 
> My views are:
> 
> 1.
> You have stated your acceptance of the - cultural bias in the 
Alice A.
> Bailey
> books. This is what you accept: Alice A. Bailey's book "Esoteric 
Psychology"
> vol1., page 167-8
> 
> And I have stated my CLEAR rejection of the same.
> 
> This is my view.
> Is it also yours Netemara ?

Morten,
I have answered most of the questions you raised throughout this 
post, just look for them. Thanks for your reply as well.

Yes, in rereading that quote I would have to say that I generally 
agree with it. However, perhaps the writers did not know how polemic 
that one line might become. 

My question is this: does acknowledgement or a statement about 
another culture make the statesman a racist automatically? If I say 
something about my race which is not positive does that make me 
culturally biased? Or if I say another negative thing about another 
race or group with the same detachment does that too make me a 
racist or culturally biased? According to you it does.

> 
> Love can only be got through love.

Not necessarily true in all instances.
 
> 2.
> The quote from Alice A. Bailey's book "Esoteric Psychology" vol1., 
page
> 167-8 --- is NOT valid theosophical teaching.
> 
> Let us put some perspective into it all.
> The books by Alice A. Bailey was written to a western audience and 
for
> obvious reasons NOT to a Middle Eastern audience. They were 
written on the
> physical level - at a certain time in the historical evolution of 
mankind on
> a small planet called Earth. The Alice A. Bailey book in mention --
- 
> "Esoteric Psychology" vol1., page 167-8 --- was written around the 
year
> 1936. It also has a content, which are talking against the Jews 
(saying they
> in a way too unclear manner, that they are a "karmic group"). - 

If he calls them a 'karmic group' then that is not a good thing.

Karmic in this sense would say that they would be due to reap 
something which is a precipitation of some selfishness found within 
their group. Understanding karmic versus destiny I would say it is 
not so unclear a statement.

Only 3 years
> before that, Hitler was named Reich Chancellor of Germany. His 
racism-like
> politics was already leaning on Christianity, which he and his 
friends later
> rejected. And remember - that the atmosphere of racism was growing 
in EU and
> even in USA near 1933-36. Later the Bailey books had to because of 
these
> earlier writings - in a clear manner - condemn Hitler because of 
the
> different WWII events. - The chronology of the creation of the 
books at
> least gives one good reason to adopt this impression. And because 
of this -
> the books has a dangerously aggression-like content and great 
possibilities
> of being misunderstood.

This goes with your earlier statement about the books stating the 
Jews were a 'karmic group.' Why? Because he is alluding to the fact 
and other places stated that Jews have been a target group in every 
country they have ever lived. He also said that they are 
ubiquitious, and when they become spiritual it will be a global 
impact. I think he is simply referring to history and not making 
anything up.

> One example is the view, that it was the Shamballa force (Sanat 
Kumara)
> which was active when Hitler forced World War II. WWII happened 
becase the
> energies on the Planet was lifted by the Shamballa force (Sanat 
Kumara) - so
> it is said. (It is a time-attached view and a narrow formulation, 
that is
> what I say.)
> 
> My view is:
> If any of the in the quote mentioned religions should be named 
a "hybrid
> offshoot" and NOT a root religion - it should be Christianity - 
which
> together with the Jews never really has accepted the principle of 
the Avatar

My understanding is that the Jews did not accept Jesus as THE avatar 
or messiah, but do have messiahic complex and are awaiting the TRUE 
messiah. They are no different than Christianity in that respect. 
According to my research the Jews began the whole Messiah-seeking 
trip! They dropped it when it did not fit their expectations. Others 
copied that part of Judaism, but Islam did not.

> ! Though they have accepted the dogmatic principle of a Pope and 
tells us,
> that this is the sign of a real (root) religion !
>
Who has accepted the pope and equated it with a root religion?

 
> Blavatsky was in her writings - much - against the Christian 
Jesuitic
> Sorcerer activities, which she called the most dangerous to the 
Society -
> the TS.
> One wonders why she did that ? Why do you think so Netemara ?
> Do you also agree upon this view ?

That makes me laugh because I know that it is a repeat of Medieval 
history in which Hitler raised his head back then (in another body) 
and tried to exterminate and hold pograms against Jews. Then and 
later HPB and her followers (original TS under different names and 
bodies) had to once again stop Hitler. She was probably laughing 
when she wrote it because she knows the truth but was not free to 
write at that time. Her ties to Catholicism run deep, make no 
mistake about it. She protests amid silence.

> 
> And we have a Alice A. Bailey which dares to twist and turn all the
> christian views around, which was written by Blavatsky. - And an 
Alice A.
> Bailey who lets Christianity (although she at very few places 
calls it the
> esoterical version of Christianity) have high position in her D.K. 
books -

There is a solid reason for this so-called bias. Would you not favor 
your religion or group in your books over anothers'?

> and creates the Muslims as scapegoats - together with the Jews. If 
she just
> had used the words "esoterical Christianity" instead of the 
misguiding
> single word "Christianity" - it would have helped us all a lot - 

I have no problem with it. She means the Western Christian tradition 
and this includes ALL the branches of Christianity then and those to 
come. If you read DK he said that those who studied with the Christ 
in Europe (meditated) will reap the rewards from these lifetimes as 
they near their final four lives (paraphrase).

She is talking about the exoteric and the esoteric. Recall that for 
the West it was Catholicism which established the university 
tradition as we know it today, first in France. So she is NOT 
throwing out the outer for the inner, she retains them both like any 
good scholar would do.



in these
> days of the Internet - and intensive use of excerpts.
> Historically related issue. Writing books taking time, place and 
people into
> account. Blavatsky was writing at a different time in history - 
when racism
> against the African countries was well accepted in the British and 
other
> european parliments. Alice A. Bailey was writing at a time where 
racism was
> high on the agenda with Hitler and all - and she chose (togehter 
with her
> friend D.K.) to write the books in a manner, which related to the 
time,
> place and people - and the audience they had in mind at that time.
> Since Alice A. Bailey died (1949) and since WWII ended 1946 - we 
have seen a
> growing understanding of the importance among the planets 
inhabitants of
> rejecting the different kinds of racisms on this Planet. But the 
present
> western massmedias and the politicians has still a need to create a
> scapegoat - and who should that be but the Muslims - because they 
don't fit
> in with certain so-called esoterical books - one af the groups of 
books
> being the Alice A. Bailey ones.
> (Not to mention, that Blavatsky didn't really touch upon this 
culture).
> 
> The teachings has to be adapted to time, place and people - else 
they will
> not attract interested readers - and students ! Do you not agree ?
>

Yes, I agree. 
> 
> The quote from the above book "Esoteric Psychology" vol1., page 
167-8 is
> quite clear in its cultural bias. And the Alice A. Bailey books 
heavy use of
> christian-like vocabulary doesn't make it go away.
> The past few Internet years and the time since 2001 9/11 - has 
made these
> books stand out as clearly insufficient.
> These books aught to be related to quality teachings from the 
Middle East -
> and not only westernized books of different culturally biased 
kinds.
> And if any of you now start telling me, that no writers in the 
Middle East
> has written anything on a level that matches the books by Alice A. 
Bailey
> I think you aught to rethink your own cultural attachments on how 
books are
> written in different cultures.
> 
> Try this link on "Characteristics of Theosophical litterature"
> which I emailed some days back.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/12917
> It is difficult to understand the writings of the sufis Rumi and 
Ghazali if
> you are from a western country and background.
> --- So ignorance is part of the picture together with a cultural 
gap of
> tremendous proportions. ---
> 
> 
> What I am telling you Netemara is, that we today - according to 
YOU- are
> witnessing a cultural clash between the so-called "hybrid-
offshoots" - also
> called The Muslims and on the other side the westernized 
Christianity
> (called a GREAT root religion). This happens according to you 
(???) with the
> silent acceptance of the United Nations. (An organisation which in 
fact -
> according to you Netemara - are under heavy influence by The Lucis 
Trust and
> its various Bailey-related branches).
> A United Nations, which since 1945/1948 has dared - in the name of 
peace -
> to deny - ANY Middle Eastern country to have a PERMANENT seat in 
the United
> Nations Security Counsil (--- The mini world Government ! ---). A 
United
> Nations which has as its highest founded duty - to seek the 
creation of
> peace on this Planet. --- How fake can one be ?
> 
> 3.
> Political issues related to certain Bailey groups:
> Keep the scapegoat (Muslims) out of the game and your writings --- 
and then
> you have it:
> "The slaves fighting among themselves" like Pharao did in the old 
days of
> Atlantic nature.
> Martin Luther King Jr. knew what he said. And he didn't reject any 
culture
> except the political aggressions coming from certain circles in 
USA !
> 
> If King had live today - he would problably have compared Vietnam 
with Iraq.
> What about China and Tibet ?
> No wonder, that the Muslims feel like the underdogs these days.
> And is this done with the blessings of the Alice A. Bailey books 
calling it
> all the "Shamballa force in action" ?
> Let us get more real than that.
> 
> Who said that the - elite Ubermensch had disappeared from the 
Planet ?
> It lives in New York (Nato !) and Washington.
> Saying that Hitler was bad - and then creating a new cultural 
scapegoat -
> won't work.
> The Jesuitic Sorcerers are still alive.
> The new thing is, that they - misuse - the theosophical teachings.
> Some Bailey groups don't do that - but others do !
> 
> When do the Lucis Trust make a compilation on the Middle Eastern 
teachings ?
> Will it happen when they have made their "hybrid offshoot" 
disappear from
> the surface of the Planet ?
> 
> 
> 4.
> Grow if you must. But don't expect, that you will not meet an 
opposition,
> which will make your cultural biased promotions spin upwards.
> God help us all.
> 
> All that said - please do not misunderstand me Netemara.
> I am only in opposition to the Bailey books on the issues, where 
they can be
> said to be
> misleading spritually or said to be against theosophical teachings 
as we all
> understand them.
> I think the Bailey books has at least something to offer the 
earnest and
> somewhat educated students.
> I do like the book A Treatise on Cosmic Fire and its words on the 
birth of a
> child --- beautiful writing --- 
> in fact on the level of the Muslims Quran's similar describtions
> 
> 
> I prefer to open the Heart centre before I open the Throat centre 
and NOT
> the Throat centre at first as it is recommended by Alice A. Bailey.
> 
> And I know that one CAN interpret Alice A. Bailey different than I 
have
> done.
> But the problem is, that it is too easy to interpret Bailey's 
books as being
> culturally biased.
> Please rethink that.
> 
> All people are important whether they are Muslims, Christians, 
Buddhists,
> Hinduists, Jews and so on...
> No one should be left behind or trampled on.
> 
> Maybe my email isn't that good...
> I have tried to cover many angles using only little space.
> 
> from
> M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "netemara888" <netemara888@y...>
> To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 2:40 PM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: It's not who in 1975, but what
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
> theosophy@a...> wrote:
> > Hallo Christina and all of you,
> >
> > My views are:
> > This link http://www.serve.com/herrmann/bailey.htm (use a
> small "b" in
> > Bailey)
> >
> > Has as I see it the problem, that it concludes that the Muslims
> will
> > gladly follow these Bailey teachings - as if they have found a 
new
> Bible.
> > I think this is wrong.
> > There are way to few Muslims in any Bailey group as far as I am
> aware of.
> > The reason is simply this:
> > "We have heard that Brahmanism is the last great religion which
> arose under
> > first ray influence; we do not know what may have been the
> religion which
> > was the outcome of the last second ray period; but the Chaldean,
> the
> > Egyptian and the Zoroastrian religions may be taken as
> representing the
> > third, the fourth, and the fifth rays respectively. Christianity
> and
> > probably Buddhism were the result of sixth ray influence.
> Mohammedanism,
> > which numbers so large a following, is also under sixth ray
> influence, but
> > it is not a great root religion, being a hybrid offshoot of
> Christianity
> > with the tinge of Judaism."
> > Esoteric Psychology vol1., page 167-8.
> 
> Morten,
> Actually it is a growing group as we speak. There is one group,
> which most people dismiss as being part of the Islamic world being
> the black muslims and the black hebrews. Both started in Chicago,
> Illinois. I can write a book on how vegetarianism began in Chicago
> among middle-class African-Americans who also changed the way we 
all
> dress now! They and many other minorities are reading the AAB books
> on the bus while going to work, this is what you don't know. There
> is a revolution out there against the status quo and people are
> looking for the most revolutionary books they can find. Tupac (the
> dead rapper) was introduced to the Bailey books by a Jewish woman
> who became his mentor. He even named his posthumous album (soon to
> be released) after the books it is called: "Resurrection."
> 
> This my friend is only a drop in the bucket. When their power being
> of light or darkness satanic or the light of the Christ is felt it
> will be part of the raising of the kundalini on a global level,
> which is already being experienced. The music that is made is part
> of this process. There are some psychic things coming which are
> going to really shock some people. It is part of evolution, what
> else? But the fundamentalist Christians are going to call all of it
> part of the Anti-Christ. Can we blame someone (whom St. Paul says 
is
> a spirit and not a person) for everything that goes wrong on earth?
> Cooooomme on.....
> 
> Netemara
> 
> 
> >
> > --- The message basically read like this: No support for the 
hybrid
> > offshoots ---
> > --- And what happens to the Middle east these days ? ---
> > --- What level of influence has the Great Invocation á la Bailey
> kind ---
> > --- upon the millions of "hybrid offshoots" in the Middle
> East ??? ---
> >
> > I find these sentences by Alice A. Bailey highly problematic if
> not just
> > plainly bad.
> >
> > from
> > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "christinaleestemaker" <christinaleestemaker@y...>
> > To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 11:00 AM
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: It's not who in 1975, but what
> >
> >
> > > Hallo there,
> > > Look at http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NewAge/Alice-
Bailey.htm
> > > and
> > > http://www.serve.com/herrmann/Bailey.htm
> > >
> > > and you see enough.
> > > Bye Christina
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "netemara888"
> <netemara888@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > DK takes great pains to describe that there will be
> breakthroughs
> > > > beginning in 1975 which will comprise the next generation of
> > > > spiritual teachings. It will not happen in that year, but is 
a
> long
> > > > process which will begin in 1975. One thing which began is a
> type
> > > of
> > > > psychic opening to greater spiritual channels. These channels
> are
> > > > the who. I don't mean channeling a master or that but 
spiritual
> > > > channels which will be open on the inside of each aspirant 
who
> is
> > > > nearing the final-four lives.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, just as RS talks about the last four lives which will
> come as
> > > a
> > > > culmination of long lives past spent in meditation so does 
DK.
> So
> > > > what we will be experiencing, reading about, seeking will be
> that
> > > > opening wider of the door between the Hierarchy and Humanity.
> And
> > > > where will it manifest? I believe that it will manifest in a
> series
> > > > of revelations (as AAB describes) but they will be about the
> higher
> > > > realms of meditation and its fruits. That is my take on the
> subject.
> > > >
> > > > Namaste
> > > >
> > > > Netemara
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/