Theos-Talk Archives (March 2003 Message tt00382)

In a message dated 03/18/03 4:25:47 PM, mail@katinkahesselink.net writes:

Hi Leon,

Most of what you write goes so far over my head that I would not even 
know where to start with asking questions. The below at least read 
like English - so I could ask some questions. 

<< Totally? What do you disagree with? There are at least three 
separate ideas in that paragraph. You also took it out of context and, 
presumedly, have no idea what question I was answering, or what 
statement I was referring to. >>

Katinka: 
True enough - as Mauri's posts seem as vague to me as yours do. 
Reading them is usually useless for me. 

<< Sorry about that. What don't you understand? Admittedly, my 
writing is necessarily complex, since I am attempting to write logically, 
about 
conditions of the Cosmos (from a scientific point of view) and the 
nvolutional processes of its field genesis, that are extremely difficult to 
talk -- since they involve dimensions beyond those that we can 
about conceive of in our reasoning mind. Yet, they can be symbolically 
modeled and, with proper mental focus and concentration, intuited in our 
Buddhi mind.
To clarify my statement... As you said in another post, "...that things can 
cease to be still been" -- my original statement that the "unconditioned 
reality (while appearing to be "empty") is NOT non existent" -- 
still stands. >>

Katinka:
I agree to the latter. Don't know what you refer to before that. 

<<That unconditioned reality is the "foundation of all our life here now" 
and can be reached in our highest consciousness. That is the condition 
of absolute bliss and harmony (Samadhi) when we are completely one 
pointed in awareness and all our seven inner fields have become 
absorbed in that point. >> 

Katinka:
agree once again.  

<<[Leon] As for the meaning in the Book of Dzyan, you are confusing the 
"unconditioned reality" we were speaking about, with the Absolute reality. >> 
 

Katinka:
Sure - Don't see the difference. How do you see them as different? 
The below gives me an inkling - a feel for the difference in your 
>yes, but the idea is rather new for me. I've always seen them as the 
same, sort of. 

Leon:
They are not different in "essence" but they are different in "state." The 
"Absolute reality" (Krishna) is the rootless root of all potential universes. 
Since we are speaking of the unconditioned and conditioned reality of this 
particular universe, we see them both as different states than the Absolute 
rootless root. We might speak of this difference as that between Parabrahm 
and Brahma, Ein Soph and Kether, etc. The "unconditioned reality" I speak of 
is the root of this Universe before manifestation. The "conditioned reality" 
is after its manifestation. Thus Brahma, asleep (unconditioned) or awake 
(conditioned) is the "creator" that is one with the "unborn" Absolute 
reality. 

<< [Leon] As Krishna, 
representing the Absolute (or "all Presence") said, "I create this entire 
universe out of one small part of myself and yet remain separate"... 
Therefore, the "Absolute reality" always remains undiminished and 
unchanged, whether or not the Cosmos is unconditioned and asleep in 
paranishpanna (Cosmic pralaya), or conditioned as the manifest 
universe (Cosmic manvantara). >>

Katinka:
That looks like an interesting definition of unconditioned. But it 
doesn't make any sense to me, though the part about Krishna does. 

Leon:
We can only speak of the Cosmos (Brahma), which can be unconditioned (when 
asleep) and conditioned (when awake). The Absolute reality, rootless root, 
(Parabrahm) or Krishna, is neither conditioned nor unconditioned, but always 
is Absolute and ineffable. Yet, while they are all part of the one reality, 
they are different in their state or circumstance of existence. Remember, 
The Absolute is the Father of innumerable universes, and no matter how many 
of them are either in conditioned or unconditioned states of existence, 
Parabrahm or Ein Soph is forever unchanged. Admittedly, that cannot be 
"sensed" since it is beyond all finite conception. However, the unconditioned 
Cosmos (Brahma) can only be "sensed" by the "open eye of the Dagma" when it 
manifests or becomes conditioned. (Ref: Stanzas I-II)

<< [Leon] I was only speaking of the latter two states that begin with the 
"Eternal Parent" and her "ever invisible robes" who had "slumbered once 
again for seven eternity's." (Remember, this Cosmos is only one out of an 
infinite number of possible universes.) Therefore, this "Mother" of the 
present 
Cosmos (or conditioned reality) -- is the "unconditioned reality" that 
cannot be conceptualized, or, as Mauri says, "scientized" -- since it is both 
timeless and formless. (But we can imagine its motion as being a continuous 
spinning of its zero-point, like the center point of the axle of a spinning 
wheel.) Yet, unlike the Absolute, which is ineffable, it is the noumenal 
root of the phenomenal universe, and thus, "exists" in potential, as a 
sleeping force in constant cyclic motion. Its "invisible robes" are the 
different aspects of its total force (or "spinergy") that represents the 
noumena of the ten fold nature (or fields of consciousness) of its initial 
phenomenal manifestation. Seven of these fields are also the robes or 
energy-mind-bodies of the first Dhyan Chohans, or seven degrees 
of initial consciousness that constitute "The Grand Architect of the 
Universe." >> 

Katinka:
I'm sure this means something to you, but you lose me with every 
breath. I think if you explain the sentence about unconditioned 
reality being the noumenal root of the phenominal universe - I might 
see it better. That sentence seems to be the core matter of the above 
paragraph. After that you lose me totally. 

Leon:
Since we are speaking only of this particular Universe or Cosmos, its 
sleeping state (Pralaya) before manifestation is the "noumena" or 
unconditioned "root" of its waking or phenomenal (manvantara) state. This 
latter state is when the unconditioned becomes conditioned. The former is the 
"Beness" and the latter, the "being." In either state, the Absolute "rootless 
root" continues to be separate and unchanged. Thus, there are three 
realities to consider. Yet the three is one. Ref: The first number in thef
ormula, "The three the one, the four the one, the five, etc." (Stanza IV)  

<<[Leon] Actually, since every involutional process in the universe can be 
understood by analogy and correspondence ("as above, so below") and follows 
the fundamental laws of cycles and periodicity, the same process of Cosmic 
involution can apply to Solar involution as well as the involution of the 
fields that represent our individual seven fold nature. Therefore, my 
discussion and geometric models describing the scientific basis of this 
involutional process, is quite general in its scope, and has to be applied at 
whatever level of genesis we are considering.>> 

Katinka:
That makes sense. But since I don't understand what you are saying at 
all - I can't apply it to any level of genesis. 

Leon:
Sorry about that. I wish it were easier to explain. Unfortunately, its not 
(it took over 1500 pages for HPB to cover it all -- and then she had to keep 
explaining it over and over in her transactions and articles). Words alone, 
however cannot do it -- since what we are talking about is something that has 
a multidimensional geometry or topology that extends from the zero-point toa 
spherical universe that can only be visualized by the open eye of the Arhat 
within us all. My involutional diagrams that are cross sections of this 
multidimensional sphericity, like bubbles within bubbles within bubbles make 
it much clearer for those capable of merging their left and right brains 
(words and pictures) while meditating on these multiple realities and their 
genesis. However, this for most people (not born with a natural talent for 
multidimensional visualization), must be trained, and takes some considerable 
practice. So, if you are interested in visualizing these relationships, I 
suggest you study the diagrams at:
http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif
http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif

Katinka:
Rereading the above, with my comments I think it comes down to the 
following question: What do you mean by "the unconditioned"? 

Leon:
The "unconditioned" is the noumenal state of the Cosmos at its zero-point 
center before manifestation into "conditioned" spherical fields that extend 
through all of phenomenal space. This can be visualized by studying my 
spherical cross section diagrams, and following the flow of the life energy 
ray as it first emanates from the zero-point center (Kama). In my 
"chakrafield" page I have several meditational practices to train this 
visualization. See:    
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html

Best wishes,

LHM

>Best wishes,
>Katinka

>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> LHM  
>> http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics
>> http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif