Theos-Talk Archives (March 2003 Message tt00383)

On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 09:30:32 -0500 (EST) Gerald Schueler 
<gschueler@earthlink.net> wrote.

<<<[Leon] Unconditioned reality is the noumenal state of the Cosmos while it 
is resting in Paranishpanna, or asleep in Pralaya.>>>

[Jerry] Agreed. In that case, then noumenal refers to the upper three planes 
and phenomenal refers to the lower four planes.

[Leon] Not according to my presumption; That the upper three planes are the 
first state after the unconditioned or "sleeping" Cosmos wakes up out of 
Pralaya. After that stage, the initial three planes involves into the four 
lower planes to make the total seven planes of conditioned reality (actually 
14 planes, ultimately -- since "conditions" imply duality's and there are, 
then, seven higher and seven lower planes). 

The non dual "noumenal" is that laya point of origination on which is 
spinning the "motion of life" and its "information content" (memory of all 
past lives and their experiences) -- out of which the phenomenal universe 
emanates and involves. This potentially infinite information content can be 
related to the infinite patterns of force possible -- due to the potentially 
infinite velocities of fundamental spin on an infinite number of axes in non 
frictional, Absolute space. Such, unconditioned reality is, therefore, 
beyond all possibilities of imagination or scientific observation and proof. 
Yet it must remain the fundamental assumption or proposition upon which all 
conditioned reality is based.

<<<Therefore, scientific deductions can only begin when the Cosmos awakens 
and sends out the first twin rays of its LIFE (light-dark) FORCE from its 
zero-point of origin >>>

[Jerry] This begs the question of where the "zero-point of origin" comes 
from. 

The zero-point of origin is the Absolute non dimensional, non motional, 
center on which the Life Force of the unconditioned reality (Cosmos in 
Pralaya) is spinning. There cannot be motion without non motion as its 
referential basis. Thus, we have the three gunas of Tamas (non motion or 
inaction), Rajas (motion or action) and Sattva (equal and opposite 
action-reaction, neutrality, or harmony). This is the root basis of karmic 
law. Therefore, the only way to transcend karma and attain enlightenment, 
or a state of extended Samadhi, is to achieve Sattva. This takes an act of 
will to reverse one's past and present disharmonious karmic actions. 

<<< until one can forgive, and conquers oneself.>>>

[Jerry] Forgiveness yes. Conquering no. The illusive "self" can be controlled 
up to a point, but never "conquered" -- who is it that will do the conquering?

I am speaking of the lower "animal self" -- as contrasted with the higher 
Self which "conquers it" by taking over the guidance of one's actions when 
one has achieved enlightenment. That higher Self or consciousness of our 
individual spiritual ray of the Absolute, is no illusion, but the final 
attainment of Mastery over all of lower Nature -- including one's own 
"vehicles." 

>From then on, the choice of one's vehicle (no matter what level, from Brahma 
to Bodhisatva) is entirely self determined. And, that all depends on an act 
of will which can only be applied by a living conscious entity that exists 
separate from all other conscious entities -- yet each consisting as a 
singular or individual ray of the primal source of universal consciousness -- 
like an individual coherent ray of photonic light radiating from a spherical 
point source, such as a carbon arc. Once emitted, that ray is on a separate 
path from all other rays. And can only return to the source by direct 
reflection. 

Therefore, "When the mind becomes smooth like a mirror, one can see reflected 
in it one's real [eternal] self origin and self existence." That is the aim 
and purpose of one-pointed concentration, or meditation "without a seed." 
Thus, the lower, animal self (human) is lifted up to merge with the higher 
Self (Brahman) -- who is a singular ray of the eternal Absolute SELF 
(Parabrahman). Thus; "There are no discontinuities or empty spaces in the 
manifest universe" -- which is inseparable from the unmanifest universe as 
well as their joint father, the unborn and unknown Absolute reality (or 
zero-point which is everywhere). Esoterically, even beyond or behind that 
point, occultists see an infinite series of possible negative turning 
universes that counterbalances the karma of these positive turning universes. 
(But that's another story beyond the scope of our immediate concern.:-) 

<<< Yet, there cannot be a conditioned reality or "dependent arising" without 
an "unconditioned reality" that supports and "empowers" it.>>>

[Jerry] Agreed. Matter and spirit go together, and you can't have one without 
the other.

[Leon] That, too. The Spirit is the zero-point with its unconditioned 
spinning "Life Force" (containing ALL the Cosmos' experiential memories) -- 
while the Matter or substance is the conditioned multidimensional fields of 
consciousness that have emanated (involved) out of it. Their triadic 
connection to the Absolute reality is what constitutes the first trinity or 
monadic existence at any subsequent level. (Mulaprakriti, Prakriti, Perusha; 
Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva; Kether, Binah, Chochma; Atma, Buddhi, Manas; etc.) 

<<< The "abyss" that separates the two states of reality is the mental 
condition that thinks that they are separate -- and not linked together by a 
fundamental force that can be conceptualized (once it has temporal 
existence). >>>

[Jerry] The "fundamental force" linking subjectivity with objectivity is 
Fohat, and its cosmic equivalent is the Great Outer Abyss which Blavatsky 
shows in her model as the third plane. The third plane links the upper two 
with the lower four. As far as I know, the "mental condition that thinks that 
they are separate" is our own inherent ignorance (arigpa) and the mental 
condition itself is the cause of maya.

[Leon] Agreed. It's another way of looking at what I said above about the 
first trinity. The root of Fohat in any manifestation is the "spinergy" of 
the (absolute) zero-point. The great outer "Abyss" is the infinite field of 
nothing but zero-points and their infinite spinergy or Life Forces spread out 
and concentrated everywhere and nowhere in Absolute abstract space... Thus, 
the source of infinitudes of universes, and within each universe, an 
infinitude of concious "beings" -- each with their own separate monadic 
existences subject to karmic law. Our Cosmos, being one of the potential 
infinitude of such zero-point entities -- in turn, involves into an 
infinitude of zero-points in its infinite space... Thus, accounting for a 
potential infinitude of finite beings within our conditioned reality -- each 
with infinite potentials of progress along the path, to ultimately become a 
God.

It's interesting to contemplate ("as above, so below") that each of us is a 
universe within ourselves -- consisting of a near infinite number of 
conscious "lives," or particles, atoms, molecules, cells organs, etc., over 
which we are the presiding God. Do we have any concern with what each of them 
is doing? Yet, isn't it possible for us to guide them toward their 
individual perfection using our latent higher powers of mind empowered by 
will? Is not that one useful purpose of enlightenment, or realization of the 
Self -- coupled with the practical knowledge of how the life fields are 
generated and how their energies flow and interact? While that may be 
considered as selfish -- wouldn't it make us better able to help and teach 
others on higher and higher levels of effectiveness?

<<<Therefor, the state of universal conditioned existence can be considered 
as the result of immutable scientific laws and logical processes that are 
inherent in the unconditioned reality. >>>

[Jerry] Agreed.

<<< The entire Book of Dzyan is a scientific treatise that speaks of such 
laws and processes from both the spiritual (consciousness) and the material 
viewpoints. >>>

Well, I suppose this could be one interpretation but it also contains a lot 
of poetry, personification, reification, and so on. The writer(s) did this 
intentionally.

Yes, for purposes of teaching. Since, Each primary field of Cosmic cons
ciousness emanates from its associated zero-point in triple monadic form -- 
they each are conscious as individual entities with access to independent 
will... And, therefore, can be personalized and reified for purposes of 
distinction of function, as well as identification labeling for conception 
using our conditioned mental processes along with out imagination. Thus, we 
can speak of them as Father, Mother, Son; Atma, Buddhi, Manas; Brahma Vishnu, 
Shiva; Kether, Binah, Chochma; Dhyan Chohans, Builders, Architects, etc. 
However, in the original mystic languages (Sanskrit, Hebrew, etc.), many of 
these scriptural names have meanings that can also be expressed by numbers, 
letters, or symbols. On the other hand, my more or less impersonal 
interpretations are limited to viewpoints that could be understood -- 
scientifically, mathematically, geometrically, topologically, etc. -- by 
those not trained in the empirical or symbolic meanings of the mystic 
languages (that say the same things in more personalized and poetic forms).

<<< The scientific equations therein are of the nature of logical 
mathematical progressions ("The three, the one, the four, the one, the five, 
the twice seven, the sum total," "OEAOHOO is one," etc.). >>>

This is a leap of faith that has never been shown, but sounds like an 
interesting topic to talk about.

I'm glad you think so. If one considers and compares both types of 
interpretations, it's obvious that they are entirely consistent with each 
other. 

<<<All the rest of the Cosmos' scientific involution's and evolutions stem 
from that beginning, governed by the fundamental laws of Nature -- tempered 
by karma -- which is dependent on free (conscious) will that awakens with the 
first differentiation.>>>

[Jerry] The use of the word "dependent" is interesting here, hinting at 
cosmos being a dependent arising, which I think it is. But one wonders, if 
Cosmos stems "from that beginning" from what does that beginning stem? And 
from what does that stem? And so on, in infinite regression.

[Leon] There is no infinite regression, since the Absolute "rootless root" 
always is the beginning of the triple series of emanations of any one of an 
infinite number of Universes. The dependent arising of each universe always 
starts with the Absolute zero-(laya) point -- which is everywhere. Thus, the 
separate universes are each independently arising. This is the reason why all 
monadic "beings" have independent access to free will when they reach a 
certain level of complexity of form... Yet, they are all interconnected 
(within their own Cosmos -- which in turn, is connected to the Absolute) 
through their individual but coadunate, absolute zero-points of origination. 
It follows, that all zero-points are equivalent in consciousness, but not 
necessarily in experience. 

It follows, that since that zero-point is in infinite duration, then each 
such individual being is, in its fundamental "self," equally infinite... As 
an individual molecule of water in the ocean remains distinct from all other 
molecules -- even were it all to be vaporized. From a scientific point of 
view, this corresponds with the laws of conservation of, and the equivalence 
between, mass and energy. 

<<<Thus, everything that conditionally exists in the Cosmos, (in the 
fundamental, triune monadic forms of "coadunate but not consubstantial" 
coenergetic fields, within fields, within fields . . . of consciousness) are 
subject to the "scientific" analysis of their genesis -- covering every step 
of the way from their zero-point origin to their ultimate macrocosmic, 
multidimensional hyperspace differentiation's (that each of us, in our 
entirely and in all our inner "lives," are microcosmic reflections of). 
Therefore, "as above, so below" -- each human monad and its seven fold nature 
is in exact correspondence with the Cosmic monad and its nature. Those are 
the "scientific" facts of life.>>>

[Jerry] The existence of everything in the Cosmos is indeed dependent on the 
existence of something else, which in turn, etc. One wonders, "Where did this 
zero-point origin come from? And what lies behind it? etc. What, if anything, 
is the difference between a zero-point origin and God? or Parabrahman? or 
Beness? Unless these questions can logically be answered, then this 
"zero-point origin" remains an unprovable initial assumption.

[Leon] That's right. The zero-point is the Absolute that always is, was and 
will be, and therefore, it is ineffable. Thus, there cannot be any 
conditioned or unconditioned reality unless that zero-point is accepted as 
the non provable proposition of "non motion" that all abstract motion and 
phenomenal motion must rest upon. This follows Einstein's proposition that 
all motion is "relative" within any continuum, but absolute with reference to 
the zero-point "singularity" around which the energy of that space moves. 

Thus, since there are many such coadunate but not consubstantial 
multidimensional spaces or coenergetic fields within any continuum, the 
identical laws apply but their expression or frequency-energy phase is 
different, and thus, relative to each other. In thought images, the speed of 
light appears to be instantaneous, while in actual phenomenal space it 
travels at a specific velocity (C in our physical space-time continuum -- But 
C^2, perhaps, in the Astral and even faster in the mental realms)

Since that abstract motion is the fundamental nature of Absolute Space, it 
can only be conceived of as being the spinning of its zero-point of origin -- 
which is pure dimensionless primal Force in itself. The static point being 
the root of consciousness or spirit, and its spinergy (angular momentum) the 
root of matter/energy. As Buddha said, "Nothing can come from nothing." 

Thus, the Absolute is both empty and full, one and many... Empty of form, but 
full of potential energy... A singularity, but also a multiplicity. 

That duality (or quadricity -- if we consider spin as being both clockwise 
and counter clockwise, positive and negative, centrifugal and centripetal, 
attractive and repulsive, etc.) -- is the nature of God, Parabrahm, or Be
ness. Thus, in Hebrew, Yod Hay Vo Hay are the four letters (numbers) of Gods 
name. (This is a mystery, since there is a hidden fifth letter that only 
occultists can truly understand -- although close study of my fractal field 
diagrams can reveal these numbers to the intuitive student.) 

As for the Cosmos, we must not confuse it with the Absolute out of which it 
came. It's dependent arising (conditioned reality) start with its zero-point 
spinergy of origin (unconditioned reality) that is dependent on nothing -- 
since it is a partless part the Absolute rootless root itself. Thus 
Parabrahm is the unborn father of countless Brahma's, each of which, upon 
manifestation, are dependently arisen. 

<<<Therefore, the roots of karma are in the cyclic laws of periodicity that 
govern such genesis. >>>

[Jerry] Where did these "laws" come from? Blavatsky herself calls them 
"propositions" which is to say non provable assumptions. We look at the world 
around us and see what appears to be cycles and recurrences, and so we posit 
or infer that a law of periodicity exists. But how do we know that what we 
observe is correct? The "roots of karma" are basically our own belief in a 
personal self that is separate from a not-self. The belief that we are a self 
that does things in time and space is the root of karma.

[Leon] The laws of cycles and periodicity can only come from a primal Force 
that is in constant spin motion -- which is circular -- and therefore, cyclic 
and vortical, or spiral, when manifested or emanated. The roots of karma are 
built into the laws of cyclic motion (electricity, sinusoidal vibration, 
harmony, resonance, induction, action-reaction, periodicity, etc.) Thus, our 
personal action and their reaction must be responsive to and governed by 
these laws of Nature. The belief in a self that does things is because we 
experience those doings. If we stop doing, such as dying, the self doesn't 
disappear. It just changes its state of being. When we are sleeping, and 
stop doing, where does the self go? Maybe the confusion is that you consider 
karma, religiously, as being personal, and I see karma, scientifically, as 
the immutable laws of motion -- which never ceases its action-reaction. 
That's why theosophy was presented as a "'synthesis' of science, religion and 
philosophy." None of those separate viewpoints can stand alone -- without 
interdependency with the others. 

<<< And, "transcending karma" is a problem of the self development of one's 
own inner nature, based on one's own actions and self devised and self 
determined efforts. >>>

[Jerry] Such "self development," if it is a Path that leads to transcending 
karma, will lead to the realization that such a separate self does not exist 
and that karma is a mayavic illusion.

[Leon] Yes, the illusion is the "thinking" that the self is separate from 
that which gave it being. However, each "self" is an individual ray of 
primal force that emanated from a particular zero-point with its own unique 
spinergy that is coadunate with all other zero-points of origin in this 
Cosmos. Therefore, it is separate in particularized (conditional) phenomenal 
reality, but not separate in Absolute reality. So long as this Cosmos 
exists, that separate zero-point of consciousness that we consider our 
individual self, will continue to exist -- since its memory will remain in 
the zero-point spinergy of its origin -- which is (with relation to this 
Cosmos) eternal. That's why Krishna can give birth to innumerable universes, 
and yet remain, in itself, separate and undiminished. Thus, as Cantor proved 
mathematically, there can be an infinite set of infinities, and , as Einstein 
proved logically, space is infinitely divisable -- yet it can be divided into 
individual particularities, or "quanta," that appear to be things in 
themselves. This imay be an indirect illusion to the higher consciousness 
plane of Brahma, but not a delusion to those individualities on the lower 
planes that experience it directly. The only illusion is thinking they are 
separate from Brahma, as they are separate from the other individualities 
surrounding them. We may be one with Brahma on our higher planes, but we 
still have to deal with that separate herd of elephants that are bearing down 
on us on the lowest plane, and threatening to trample us into the separate 
ground. I'd hate to think that they or I were illusions.:-)

Therefore, it seems that your belief in the "self as being a non existent 
illusion" is just parroting of an exoteric teaching that has no logical 
foundation in the fundamental cyclic laws of karma (action). In my view, 
this religious view of karma, does not coincide with the scientific or 
conditionally realistc view. There must be a distinction made between the 
lower and the higher Self. Who is the one that "realizes"? Who is the one 
that transcends his personal karma (defined as the action-reaction attributed 
to the lower physical self)? Does the mind and memory of all past action, 
imprinted indelibly in the Akashic record, cease to exist? Or, is that 
action simply harmonized and thus made ineffective with respect to one's 
future karmic reaction, when one achieves enlightenment? 

<<<Thus, the "heart doctrine" and the "head doctrine" go hand in hand as the 
means to transcend karma -- through proper visualizations, meditations, 
intuitions, and practices of correct action -- in order to attain 
"enlightenment." >>>

[Jerry] Agreed.

<<<The sole purpose of scientific understanding of genesis, then, as taught 
thoroughly in the Secret Doctrine, and subsequently correlated with the 
latest findings of modern science, is to give one an absolute conviction of 
the reality of the theosophical truths of karma and reincarnation that are 
derived from and consistent with such scientific understandings.>>>

[Jerry] And one can only ask, What is "the reality of the theosophical truths 
of karma and reincarnation?" A literal interpretation of the SD will not 
answer this question, because it puts both on too high a pedestal. Karma and 
reincarnation are mayavic illusions, and BECAUSE they are, we can consciously 
control/direct them.
Just some thoughts, Jerry S.

[Leon] You are right in a sense -- since we are the masters of our own fate, 
and can choose to transcend our personal karma as well as refuse to incarnate 
after full enlightenment is reached. However, that choice can do nothing 
more than change our state of being, whether as a Bodhisattva or a Pratyeka 
Buddha resting in Nirvana. But in either case, the individual Self cannot 
cease to exist -- until this entire Cosmos depletes its total energy and 
finally dies, some countless billions of Solar years from now. That is an 
"eternity," as far as we each, individually, are concerned. Unfortunately, 
there are very few us around today that can reach such a condition of 
enlightenment so as to determine the state of our future existence. So, for 
those of us not so enlightened, we will just have to accept the karma and 
reincarnation that our past and current actions determine -- or do something 
to ameliorate it. That requires individual self induced, self devised, and se
lf determined study and effort. 

Thank you for your interesting thoughts, and giving me the opportunity to 
further comment on these profound ideas. 

Best wishes,

LHM

For further aid and assistance along the path, ref:
The Secret Doctrine, The Ocean of Theosophy, The Voice of the Silence, The 
Yoga Aphorisms of Patanjali, The Tao Te Ching, The Dammapada, The Bahagavad 
Gita
http://tellworld.com/Astro.Biological.Coenergetics
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/einstein.html
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/chakrafield.html
http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/invlutionflddiagnotate.gif
http://users.aol.com/leonmaurer/Invlutionfldmirror2.gif
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/yinyang.html
http://users.aol.com/uniwldarts/uniworld.artisans.guild/evolution2.html