Theos-Talk Archives (January 2003 Message tt00417)

Hi P. Lindsay and all of you,


Well...I will keep it as short as possible...

1.
M. Sufilight wrote:
> I think it is horrible, that you - seem - to find Shamballa to be
> the driving force behind Hitlers black magic acts !
> > And that you even call that force divine !
> > True ?

P. Lindsay wrote:
> You obviously do not understand esotericism very much.

My view:
Because I ask questions, I am not necessarily stupid. Rethink your statement
please.
P. Lindsay can I have an answer to the above question - instead of being
given a negative expression, which just show us all your own ignorance ?
The problem is that Bailey says that the divine Shamaballa force stimulated
the Hitler facism in coming into existence.
I won't agree on that formulation, something is at least lacking.
Is is at least the truth, that: The Hitler facists themselves - stimulated
themselves, so their evil political party came into existence. The masses of
people didn't search for the evil events of WWII to happen.
People can chose what to do. They can chose to do good or evil. It is their
choice although limited as it is by karma and lack of compassion.
If peoples own actions are controlled by the divine Shamaballa force I am
wondering, what is going on right now in our lives.

Isn't it true, that narrow formulations like this one made by Bailey can
create problems on how one views the Bailey-teachings ?
Please explain, if you can ?
So all pro-Baileys understand this issue ?


2.
P. Lindsay wrote:
> Destruction is a spiritual force. The old must be destroyed or
> transformed before the new can establish itself properly.

My question:
By what means do you think this destruction of the old will be accomplished.
By the western politicians
claiming their right to kill some more of the Muslims ?
And the pro-Baileys (non of them being muslims as far as I know) afterwards
shouting that they had Shamballa on their side, and you see we knew it all
along...etc...
The muslims were evil terrorists, they deserved to feel the divine force
from Shamballa....and so on...
Is that it ?

My point on this is mentioned in my latest email to James Davis.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/10564

a) The Bailey books are not a balanced multicultural presentation on
Theosophy.
b) The Bailey books leans heavily towards a Chrisitan outlook unto the
world. The consequences of this will show up in the present information
society.
c) The Middle East is hardly mentioned in the books, but the Christian
religion gets a whole lot of coverage.
d) The books were NOT intended for a Middle Eastern audience. Today
communication is rapid - due to the Internet. The audience is different
today.
e) Bailey groups are connected with work at The United Nations,
Headquarters.
f) Because of that they are politically involved, and that on an
international level.
h) This is today one of the problems the books of Bailey creates in TODAYS
international information society, where there are clearly visible political
tensions between the Western politicians and The Middle Eastern ones.

Agreed ?
If not, why ?

Please, read the next lines before answering.

3.

P. Lindsay wrote:
Oh yeah, because they are trying to introduce meditation and the
> Great Invocation to the UN?

My view:
Yes but have you read The Great Invocation lately ?
http://www.lucistrust.org/invocation/

So you are saying that, the pro-Baileys meditating at The United Nations are
not shouting to create an
energyfield to make an outpouring of will-force from Shamballa ?
"From the centre where the Will of God is known
Let purpose guide the little wills of men -
The purpose which the Masters know and serve. "

And with the pro-Baileys cultural bias towards the Middle East in mind,
well...well...who is the next to
feel "the Shamballa force"...

What is really happening Blavatsky mentions in her article:
"Occultism Versus the Occult Arts"
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/hpb-sio/sio-occ.htm

"There are four (out of the many others) names of the various kinds of
Esoteric Knowledge or Sciences given, even in the exoteric Puranas. There is
(1) Yajna-Vidya,* knowledge of the occult powers awakened in Nature by the
performance of certain religious ceremonies and rites. (2) Mahavidya, the
"great knowledge," the magic of the Kabalists and the Tantrika worship,
often Sorcery of the worst description. (3) Guhya-Vidya, knowledge of the
mystic powers residing in Sound (Ether), hence in the Mantras (chanted
prayers or incantations) and depending on the rhythm and melody used; in
other words, a magical performance based on Knowledge of the forces of
Nature and their correlation; and (4) ATMA-VIDYA, a term which is translated
simply "Knowledge of the Soul," true Wisdom by the Orientalists, but which
means far more.


This last is the only kind of Occultism that any theosophist who admires
"Light on the Path," and who would be wise and unselfish, ought to strive
after."......." Thus, since both have to reap the fruits of their labors and
achievements in the black art, the Western practitioners should not have the
punishment and reputation without the profits and enjoyments they may get
therefrom. For we say it again, hypnotism and vivisection as practised in
such schools, are Sorcery pure and simple, minus a knowledge that the
Voodoos and Dugpas enjoy, and which no Charcott-Richet can procure for
himself in fifty years of hard study and experimental observation. Let then
those who will dabble in magic, whether they understand its nature or not,
but who find the rules imposed upon students too hard, and who, therefore,
lay Atma-Vidya or Occultism aside -- go without it. Let them become
magicians by all means, even though they do become Voodoos and Dugpas for
the next ten incarnations. "


Without the proper knowledge of Atma-Vidya those wellmeaning pro-Baileys are
behind dubious sorcery.
I would call it culturally westernized biased sorcery !
Some are conscious about their acts and some are not about their magical
"deeds".
Do the reader agree ?
Does P. Lindsay agree, if not why ?


Let us us see if P. Lindsay will answer on this.

Feel free to comment or do your best...


from
M. Sufilight




----- Original Message -----
From: <phillip@esotericastrologer.org>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 12:44 AM
Subject: Theos-World Re: Shamballa behind facism ?


> > I think it is horrible, that you - seem - to find Shamballa to be
> the driving force behind Hitlers black magic acts !
> > And that you even call that force divine !
> > True ?
>
> You obviously do not understand esotericism very much.
>
> > My view is, that Karma allowed the black magic done by Hitler to
> happen.
> > The Masters 'acts' so to speak made it possible for the Hitler
> facists to
> > raise to power. But the Masters didn't support their actions !
>
> No one has said they had.
>
> The Master
> > keept away for certain reasons, which are known by them and didn't
> interfer.
> > And Humanity learnt a lesson.
> > Agreed ?
>
> Yes.
>
> > I will also question wheather Brahman acts at all, with the
> ordinary use of
> > the word 'act' taken in to account.
> > And that is why Alice A. Bailey is talking nonsense in the quote
> mentioned
> > in one of the earlier emails.
> > (Alice A. Bailey: "The Externalization of the Hierarchy"; p.127, )
> > The central issue is that Baileys use of words in certain passages
> of her
> > books, - TODAY in our present society - are having tendencies to
> act as a
> > destructive force, and not as a constructive force spiritually
> seen.
>
> Destruction is a spiritual force. The old must be destroyed or
> transformed before the new can establish itself properly.
>
> > Those who supports Bailey among the newcomers, are often also
> those who
> > supports, a fanatic stance towards the present days Televisions
> newsflashes
> > and the newspapers propaganda - against, what is not a western
> lifestyle.
> > Try to think that through and the consequences of it.
> > Agreed?
>
> No not at all.
>
> > Presently: USA wants war, and Germany says NO, One wonders why.
> Anyone ?
> > Maybe the fake Bailey - masters are up to a new plot - using the
> Shamballa
> > force - and using their "Great" Invocation upon the United
> Nations ! Is this
> > true ?
> > What are your views P. Lindsay ?
>
> You are talking complete crap!
>
> > I can only urge you to reconsider your support for those Bailey-
> groups who
> > PRESENTLY acts as very dubious sorcerers near The United Nations
> buildings.
>
> Oh yeah, because they are trying to introduce meditation and the
> Great Invocation to the UN?
>
> > Many, if not all of them, are wrong in being passive on The Middle
> East
> > issues, or by their passiveness not supporting peace.
> >
> > I deny, that any force named "divine" honestly can support black
> magic.
>
> Maybe you should ponder upon the fact that the Masters consider us
> all black magicians until we have taken the 4th degree or Arhat
> initiation.
>
> > The motive will always be unselfish in its nature.
> > Words in emails are not the best to use, when are dealing with
> these issues.
>
> > Have you ever wondered why the appr. 1.000.000.000 muslims and
> their sufi teaching are not really mentioned in the books written by
> Bailey or'dictaed' by what som dare call a MASTER ?
> > Have you ever deeply consider the consequences of this ?
>
> DK was writing a synthesis of eastern and western traditions. For
> those with the eyes to see, there are traces of all traditions
> through it.
> BTW, Alice Bailey was actually a friend of Inyat Khan...
>
> P.
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>