Theos-Talk Archives (November 2002 Message tt00552)

Dear Friend:

When you write me, do you think of my "color" -- of the skin? or of
the mind and the whole man?

I, for instance, don't consider it relevant.

Dal

-----Original Message-----
From: netemara888 [mailto:netemara888@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 4:02 AM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Theos-World Re: The meaing of "race" "politics," greed, and
war.

Dallas, I have been asking other so-called spiritual people for years
that same question: I thought we were supposed to be about
brotherhood? But all I got was no better treatment from them than the
general population. I am not saying that is true here, but perhaps
Theosophists do get it right, I don't know. We have said here that
HPB was a product of her times, well so were the Presidents who had
slaves and impregnated them also a product of their times.

Brotherhood may be slow in coming, but I think it is coming in the
future. We did not have it then, and we don't have it now, at least
not to my satisfaction. But I ain't nobody. I discuss race and the
like because it tells a story just like the address you live at. We
have all changed addresses during our many lives here, and the race
is merely an address. I have gone so far to see when I trace lives
that people look the same throughout each life regardless to what
race they incarnate into!! BUT I can't get any white people to see
it my way, so I just keep writing and talking to myself. I agree 100%-
--but it is the powers that be that don't want to give an inch.

Netemara

*************

--- In theos-talk@y..., <dalval14@e...> wrote:
> Nov 18 2002
>
> Re: Race and Politics?
>
> Dear Netemara:
>
> The first object of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is to establish a
nucleus
> for a brotherhood of humanity. Is it not ?
>
> How should Theosophists discuss "race" and "politics."
>
> What can be used to unite, not divide ?
>
> How can we speak casually of war and killing and making forcible
> changes in other countries' governments? As an exaggerated example:
> How would any one of us like a unit of policemen camped in our homes
> to see we maintain the Law ? [ Do we have a right to be "crazy?"
> When do our neighbours have a "right" to interfere ? What, then
> become their responsibilities ? ]
>
> Yes, there are objectionable "dictators." and they need to be
> restrained, whether in Iraq or in Libya, or anywhere. But,
> fundamentally it is up to the local people to effect changes, not
> external might, which is also tainted with a greed for oil, etc...,
> and for the power that it represents.
>
> Any one with any discernment know that Iraq is unable to endure any
> contest of might with the US, or the united UN. But, can any one
> predict the future? We may secure a peace by force and removal of a
> current trouble maker, but does that cure the disease ? What,
> fundamentally is the disease ? Can it ever be forcefully
eradicated,
> and health forced in ? What will be the conditions 20, 50, 100
years
> from now ?
>
> Is it not strange that in a Theosophical chat-group (where
brotherhood
> is the basic criterion) we have discussions about "race" and
> "politics?" What would be a Theosophical basis for consideration?
>
> If we, each of us, are Immortal Souls, then our present incarnation
is
> only one of a great series, where we have lived in many "races" and
> different "sexes," and have played with "politics" down the ages --
> only we don't remember the details.
>
> One thing is certain: our present inclination, and what we know in
> our hearts, indicates WHAT WE HAVE EXPERIENCED AND STORED in our
> characters. We all know the difference between selfishness and
> compassion.
>
> Theosophy teaches compassion., not the divisions of hatred and
> prejudice.
>
> So why should we concern ourselves with the present day arguments
> motivated by either greed or parochialism, and marked by an
> indifference to human suffering, if it is sufficiently far away from
> our doorstep and neighbourhood.
>
> Do we think at all of the innocents in Iraq and elsewhere who are
> affected by the armed incursions of various "peace-keeping" military
> units and men?
>
> How can one keep peace by armed might? Is that rue fundamental
> justice ?
>
> Dallas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: netemara888 [mailto:netemara888@y...]
> Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 11:38 AM
> To: theos-talk@y...
> Subject: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant
> white as in 'wh...
>
> To whomever is concerned about the race in HPB:
>
> I heard this same stuff from another source and my response was that
> blacks in America, anyway cannot speak for other folks: LOVE HPB and
> AAB writings. I asked him where the heck do you think I first got
the
> books and the occult instruction from nearly 30 years ago? From
other
> African Americans who had the books and gave them to me and bade me
> be a vegetarian (this was heavily influenced by Dick Gregory) and
the
> like. We KNOW what is in the books my friend, but that does not
deter
> US, period. I know what is in all the books they wrote, cause I read
> them all, and that does not deter me. I cannot speak for Jewish
> reaction, except that it is usually extremely negative. I think that
> HPB did that ON purpose...IMO--and I have been reading this and grew
> up on it ever since.
>
> I think the anti-semitism and the rest are all in there for a
reason,
> as you point out, but that reason may not be the reason you think it
> is in there for. Every thought about that? She is trying to shake up
> people. Do you think she did not know that her works would be read
on
> into the next century? Of course she knew she predicted AAB's work
> 100 years after her own. The race stuff meaning skin color or IQ or
> whatever is just what it sounds like RACISM 101!!!!! It is merely to
> keep crackheads like yourself away from her books......just kidding.
>
> Netemara
>
> ****************
>
> -- In theos-talk@y..., Nisk98114@a... wrote:
> > It seems that just about ALL (so far as i can tell) very
> enlightened beings
> > bring this(below) into the world.
> > FIRE
> > Some of us are warmed by this and some are BURNT.
> > The sword that Jesus supposedly placed before all indicating that
> he brought
> > not PEACE (to the ho-hum participants of LIFE) but war.
> > What kind of a war was he referring to , i wonder?
> > BUT, as a master once stated, the student MUST feel everything ,
> good , bad
> > or indifferent , in its entirety.
> > Oh woe, (1st chapter of the Bhagavad Gita , don't you
> think?).Despondency
> > must arise followed , maybe, by analysis of this woe and how to
get
> out of it.
> > I suppose , in the interim struggle, we, as students must suffer
or
> enjoy all
> > in the "interest" or LAW to exchange one "coin" for another. (The
> coinage of
> > the animal nature to the human nature and then to the Divine
> Nature) This
> > former paragraph was pointed out by a VERY wise yogin.
> > This FIRE is very potent, one might think.
> > And so it is.
> > Our sufferings and enjoyments seem to point to this very FIRE,
> don't you
> > think.
> > So, then , what happens next?
> > A moonlit stillness? or frost ? can possibly enfold the student.
> > How delicious, after that "roasting".
> > Ahhhhhh.
> > PAX and PREMA. Long may it dwell with us.
> > ========================================================
> >
> > In a message dated 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > bhakti.eohn@v... writes:
> >
> > > Subj: Theos-World Re: "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant
> white as
> > > in 'white' race. "
> > > Date: 11/14/02 2:18:21 PM Eastern Standard Time
> > > From: bhakti.eohn@v... (Bhakti Ananda Goswami)
> > > Reply-to: <A HREF="mailto:theos-talk@y...";>
> > theos-talk@y...</A>
> > > To: theos-talk@y...
> > >
> > > DEAR MR. CALDWELL,
> > >
> > > PLEASE ALLOW ME TO CLARIFY MY STATEMENT FOR YOU...
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@y..., "Daniel H. Caldwell" <comments@b...>
> wrote:
> > > > Bhakti Ananda Goswami writes:
> > >
> > > > "H.P. Blavatsky always assumed Arya meant white as in 'white'
> race.
> > >
> > > HERE I AM REFERING TO THE FACT THAT ARYA WAS AT THAT TIME
> INTERPRETED
> > > BY ALL THE EUROPEAN TRANSLATORS OF SANSKRIT AS MEANING 'WHITE'
> AS
> > > IN 'WHITE RACE', OR THEIR INTERPRETATION OF 'ARYA' AS 'WHITE
> TARA'.
> > >
> > > I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYWHERE THAT HPB WAS HATEFUL TOWARDS THE
DARK
> > > RACES. I HAVE SAID SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN HORRIFIED AT WHAT WAS
> > > EVENTAULLY DONE IN THE NAME OF HER MASTERS' 'ROOT RACES' IDEAS.
> > >
> > > HER WRITINGS, INCLUDING THE MAHATMA LETTERS, ARE A LARGE BODY
OF
> > > WORK, EVEN IF SHE HAD SUBSTANTIAL HELP, AND THEY CONTAIN MANY
> > > CONTRADICTIONS. IN THEM SHE / THEY FREQUENTLY SEEM TO GIVE
> > > CONTRADICTORY TEACHINGS ON THE SAME SUBJECT. I HAVE COLLECTED
> ANTI-
> > > RACE-OPPRESSION STATEMENTS FROM HER, AND EVEN SENT A VERY
> IMPRESSIVE
> > > ONE TO BRIAN. SO I AM NOT ON A WITCH-HUNT AGAINST HER. IN
> FACT, IN
> > > ONE OF MY LETTERS TO BRIAN, I LIKENED HER BENEVOLENT BUT
RACIST
> > > ATTITUDE TO THAT OF SOME OF MY SLAVE-KEEPING ANCESTORS. I WILL
> POST
> > > THAT NOTE HERE.
> > >
> > > HPB WAS A BRILLIANT AND COMPLEX WOMEN, AND THE THEOSOPHICAL
> WRITINGS
> > > MIX AND MERGE AND CONTRADICT IN TURN MANY ATTITUDES AND IDEAS
> FROM A
> > > WIDE VARIETY OF THOUGHT-SYSTEMS. THUS ONE CAN FIND BOTH RACIST
> AND
> > > ANTI-OPRESSION AND NON-RACIST STATEMENTS IN THE WRITINGS. WHAT
> IS
> > > THE NEED TO SORT THEM FOR RACIST STATEMENTS, EXCEPT THAT THESE
> AND
> > > THEIR INFLUENCE ON HISTORY IS BEING DENIED ? THEN THOSE OF YOU
> WHO
> > > LOVE HPB AND WANT TO DEFEND HER, WILL SORT THE LETTERS LOOKING
> FOR
> > > THE TIMES WHEN SHE EXPRSESSED NOBEL SENTIMENTS AND HIGH IDEALS.
> BOTH
> > > ARE REAL. SHE WAS NOT A MONSTER. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT SHE
> WANTED
> > > TO DO HARM TO ANY PERSON OF ANY COLOR !
> > >
> > > AS LONG AS THE RACISM IN THE WRITINGS IS BEING DENIED AND
> CONTINUES
> > > TO HAVE A PATHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON THE HUMAN RACE, THEN SOMEONE
> WILL
> > > HAVE TO KEEP POINTING THIS OUT.
> > > LET THE DEFENDERS OF HPB HELP TO REMOVE THE THORN FROM
> HUMANITY'S
> > > FLESH, AND PEOPLE WILL STOP NEEDING TO DO WHAT BRIAN AND I ARE
> > > DOING. THE WRITINGS ARE STILL A PRIMARY SOURCE FOR RACISTS
> WORLD
> > > WIDE, AND NO MATTER HOW BENEVOLENT THE MEMBERS ON THIS SITE
ARE,
> THAT
> > > FACT IS NOT CHANGED. FOR THEOSOPHISTS TO CONTINUE TO PROMOTE
> THIS
> > > PATHOLOGICAL RACE THEORY IS NAIVE AND SOCIALLY IRRESPONSIBLE AT
> > > BEST. THE WHOLE ROOT-RACES IDEA IS RACIST. IT HAS HAD A
> PROFOUNDLY
> > > DESTRUCTIVE EFFECT IN HUMAN EXPERIANCE, AND TO DENY THIS IS
> SIMPLY
> > > STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND. IT DOES NOTHING TO REDEEM HPB.
> I AM
> > > NOT ACCUZING HER OF THE HOLOCAUST ! I DON'T THINK SHE MASTER-
> MINDED
> > > THE SINHALESE GENOCIDAL CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE TAMIL BLACKS IN
SRI
> > > LANKA ! BUT THE NATURE OF IDEAS IS THAT WHEN THEY GET TURNED
> LOOSE
> > > IN THE WORLD, THEY FLOW LIKE MOLTEN LEAD TO THE LOWEST POINTS
> AND
> > > SETTLE THERE.
> > >
> > > PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT THEY DO WITH INFORMATION. IF
> IDEAS
> > > WORK THEIR WAY OUT THROUGH HUMAN EXPERIANCE MALEVOLENTLY, THEN
> THOSE
> > > IDEAS NEED TO BE CLOSELY EXAMINED AND CORRECTED IF POSSIBLE.
> > >
> > > > What difference does it make if she used the term 'white or
> the
> > > > term 'Aryan,' when to her they meant the same thing?
> > >
> > > THE NEXT STATEMENT IS ABOUT THE TERM 'ARYA / ARYAN' IN THE
> CONTEXT OF
> > > ARYANISM IN GENERAL. THUS I MENTION RELATED TERMS.
> > >
> > > Whether they are
> > > > called the Aryan or White Brotherhood or Aryan or White
> Ascended
> > > > Masters or 'Mastered Beings' (currently popular New Age term)
> makes
> > > > no difference if Arayan means white race. The whole root
races
> idea
> > > > is based on the erroneous premise that Arya in the Sanskrit
> > > > literatures means 'white race.'"
> > >
> > > MY CHALLENGE TO ALL RACIST ARYANISTS IS THAT THE TERM ARYA /
> ARYAN
> > > WAS NOT FROM THE ROOT AR MEANING 'WHITE', BUT FROM THE DEITY
> NAME
> > > HAR, AS IN HARI (KRISHNA-VISHNU),
> > > HARA (SHIVA),
> > > HVARE(DEITY OF THE ZEND AVESTA, ZOROASTRIANISM ETC. ),
> > > HRIH (AMITABHA-LOKESVARA),
> > > ILU (SUPREME LORD OF SUMER),
> > > URI, ORI ETC OF THE EASTERN SEMITES,
> > > ARI, ALI, ELI OF THE WESTERN SEMITES,
> > > HURRI OF THE HURRIANS
> > > HELI OF THE HELLENES
> > > HERI OF THE HRYNS (EGYPTIANS)
> > > OLU OF THE NIGER FAMILY OF LANGUGES(SOURCE OF THE ORISHA)
> > > SOLE OF THE ROMANS
> > > ETC.
> > >
> > > THUS THE 'PATRONYMIC' OF ALL OF THESE SUPREME SO-CALLED 'SOLAR
> > > MONOTHEISM GODS' WAS A COGNATE OF ARYA OR ARYAN, LIKE HEBREW
> ELYM,
> > > HURRIAN, HARIJANA, SURA GANA, HARYANA, HVARENA, HELLEN, SOLANA,
> ETC.,
> > > WITH THE HEBREW / SANSKRIT SUFFIX JN / YN / YM ETC.
MEANING 'OF-
> FROM
> > > OR -RELATED-TO' THE DEITY HARI, HARA ETC.
> > >
> > > NOTHING TO DO WITH 'WHITE'.
> > >
> > > 'WHITE' ARYAN INVASION THEORY ALL NONSENSE.
> > >
> > > > Quoted from:
> > > > http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~muehleb9/lettersed.html
> > > >
> > > > In the above statement, Goswami does NOT give any references
> to
> > > HPB's
> > > > writings where we could find support for his statements.
> > > >
> > > > As regards Goswami's reference to "Aryan or White Brotherhood
> or
> > > > Aryan or White Ascended Masters", where in HPB's writings
does
> she
> > > > use these terms?
> > > >
> > > > I also append BELOW all the entries from THE SECRET DOCTRINE
> under
> > > > the term "Aryan(s) Race."
> > > >
> > > > Daniel H. Caldwell
> > > > BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
> > > > http://hpb.cc
> > > >
> > > > -------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Aryan(s) Race. See also Root-Race -- Fifth
> > > >
> > > > adept astronomers of II 699
> > > > adepts I vii; II 495
> > > > adepts vs Atlantean sorcerers II 384, 495
> > > > allegories re II 82, 381, 383, 495, 576
> > > > ancestors of Egyptians II 328
> > > > Arabs are later II 200
> > > > Arabs in Afghanistan II 200 &n
> > > > Asiatics saw last of giant Atlanteans II 433
> > > > Atlanteans preceded II 144, 352
> > > > Atlanteans taught II 426
> > > > born in the north II 768
> > > > branches of II 106
> > > > bull symbolizes II 533
> > > > called first speaking race Ad-i II 452
> > > > Carlyle q on II 470
> > > > cataclysm will destroy II 445
> > > > colonies fr Atlantis II 266n
> > > > common religion before separation I xxix
> > > > cosmogony II 23, 241, 500, 536, 603
> > > > decimal system I 360-2
> > > > descend fr yellow Adams II 426
> > > > dvijas II 469
> > > > early, Atlantean II 371 &n, 433n, 743
> > > > early history of II 328, 395, 425-9, 609, 743, 768-9
> > > > era, figures given II 68n
> > > > Europeans & Christians latest I 425
> > > > fifth race incorrectly called II 433-4
> > > > Fohat key to, religions I 673
> > > > height of, after third subrace II 753
> > > > Hindu, navigators before Phoen II 406
> > > > Hindu, nearly one million years old II 470-1
> > > > influence on Babylonian myth II 130
> > > > initiated, view of Moon I 396
> > > > Kabbala came fr I 376
> > > > kali-yuga of I 644-5; II 147n
> > > > knew mysteries of sound, color I 534
> > > > knew of Earth's rotation II 154-5
> > > > languages II 199-200 &nn
> > > > magi emigrate to Sagdiani II 356
> > > > many colors of II 249-50
> > > > migrated to India II 609
> > > > mixed w seventh subrace Atlanteans II 743
> > > > Mysteries based on number ten II 603
> > > > Negroes, Mongols, & II 607n
> > > > neo-, of postdiluvian age II 356
> > > > Neolithic man &, invasion II 716n, 741
> > > > Peris or Izeds were II 394
> > > > philosophy older than Egyptian I 387
> > > > Rama first divine king of II 495
> > > > rel concepts not just physiological II 526
> > > > root-race & fifth continent II 8, 10
> > > > second subrace of, built menhirs II 750
> > > > Semitic &, religion I 115n, 382-3, 444, 655; II 128, 142n,
200
> &n
> > > > separated two - three million years ago II 425
> > > > sevenfold classification w II 34, 142n, 614
> > > > spiritual ancestors of II 165-6n, 31
> > > > spiritually higher than Greeks II 158
> > > > swastica mystical conception of II 99-100
> > > > symbols free of impure thought I 382-3
> > > > taught emanation, not creation II 54
> > > > tribes conquered Egypt II 746
> > >
> > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
>
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