Theos-Talk Archives (August 2002 Message tt00133)

Aug 13 2002

Dear Friends:

Let us apply some aspects of Theosophical psychology to the
question of suicide. The individual in despair believes
that life in the present bodily situation is hopeless. They
consider suicide as a leap into the dark, not knowing if
that will be beneficial or the reverse.

Theosophy points to our living as a continuous educational
experience. If it is painful then that is the result of our
past choices. The solution is not to escape but to find out
what brought on the present, and how to make the best of
them. Escape is not answer. In fact, theosophy states the
condition of a person who murders themselves merely does
away with the physical body. The Conscious individual is
violently thrust on to the Astral Plane. Suffering is
intensified as nothing can be done for a long period of time
to alleviate it. At the end of the period at which the body
would normally have died of old age, let us say, the exit
from this Astral Plane and very personal suffering in that
astral condition occurs and the immortal Spirit/soul
continues its evolution. The condition that follows is
Devachan and then rebirth into a new body in accord with the
Karmic destiny that we each make for ourselves as we live.
Theosophy says that the tendency to suicide may persist into
future lives as the battle to expel such a dominant feeling
has to be won eventually. In the meantime there is loss of
time.

SUICIDES:--

Though not separated completely from Buddhi and Atma yet
there is a vast gulf until the day when they would have
normally died.

These two: Atma-Buddhi are passive for the intervening time,
(to the hour of the last judgment--when the last and final
struggle between Atma-Buddhi on one hand and Kama-Manas on
the other occurs). (Theos. Articles & Notes, p.239-40)

Suicide is death brought on voluntarily and with full and
deliberate knowledge of its immediate consequences....If, in
a fit on insanity a man commits suicide, he falls asleep
like any other victim of accident.	TA&N	p. 240



If you are interested the next paragraphs give an idea of
Theosophical psychology applied to this question.

Theosophy as I understand it views life as a whole -- an
ongoing development. Bodies and forms change, but the inner
Spirit/Soul does not die. The ultimate goal for all
mankind is a perfection of Mind so that wisdom prevails in
the personality that now is purified.

Some basic principles of doctrine are:

"We are, at the very Root of our Being, eternal MONADS
(ATMA-BUDDHI). When we are able to raise our Lower Manasic
perceptions (which, in the "here and now" are limited to our
gross plane of physical existence) to the level of the
SPIRITUAL
...we will have passed out of the "time-illusions" imposed
by this
"here and now" to the timeless stream of DURATION.

The "We" does not change. It is the ever-eternal, immortal
and enduring
SPIRITUAL Center (the ETERNAL PILGRIM - the MONAD in each of
us -
always ONE with the ABSOLUTE from which it emanates
directly.)

A thread of consciousness ever links the Higher
(Buddhi-Manas) and
the Lower (Kama-Manas). It is imperishable Root from which
the
karmic emanations we call our Personalities emerge in a long
stream of incarnations related each to the other by Karma
and the
needs of Monads of lesser experience, who aggregate around
us for
their own growth and progress." (S.D., Vol. I, pp. 174-5fn)


Theosophy teaches that the immortal spirit/soul is the
source of our consciousness and that the Mind is a tool
which it uses to link itself with the bodily form that it
temporarily lives in, acts in, feels in, dreams in, imagines
and visualizes in, --- those are all temporary conditions
and limitations of contact and sensation. The body then is
always made available to the imperishable soul according to
the laws of Karma. This "karma" or "responsibility and
debt" as some have called it, is sensed in ourselves -- from
it we derive the sense of egoity, EGO, I-ness.


"...the One Consciousness...as differentiated in man is his
Higher Self [Atma] ...Our consciousness is one and not many,
nor different from other consciousnesses. It is not waking
consciousness or sleeping consciousness, or any other but
Consciousness itself. ...

The One Consciousness of each person is the witness or
spectator of the actins and experiences of
every state we are in or pass through. It therefore follows
that the waking consciousness of the mind is not separate
consciousness...The one consciousness pierces up and down
through all the states or planes of Being, and serves to
uphold the memory-whether complete or incomplete-of each
state's
experiences..."	NOTES ON THE BHAGAVAD GITA pp. 98-100


Theosophy points out that the physical brain is a most
flexible and adaptive tool, it forms the link between Mind
and body. It transmits to the Mind the sensations it
receives and a also from the Mind it transmits to the body
the actions that the mind chooses.


We thus see there are in each of us the following links or
principles and these are all interconnected and operative in
a person who is well. These are:

1. the Spirit/soul ( ATMA-BUDDHI - a Monad ) -- This is a
Unit that is in continual communication with the SPIRIT of
the Earth and Nature. It is also in communication with all
other Monads.

2	The Mind (The Mind is said to be dual. If the thoughts
and motives are altruistic, noble, generous, virtuous, then
the Higher Mind ( BUDDHI-MANAS) is said to be operating. If
the thoughts are selfish, self-limited and self-directed,
isolating the person from the rest of the world and others,
then the Lower-Mind (KAMA-MANAS) is said to be operating.

3.	The Feelings, emotions, likes and dislikes, vices, etc.,
are said to be a principle in themselves distinct from the
Mind and as they are self-directed they are anti-social, on
occasion immoral and viciously destructive of others. This
principle is named KAMA -- "desires".

4	The physical body when awake and active, is the plane
where the Principles (1 through 3) can act. Their action has
to be through the physical brain to contact the bodily
organs and direct their functions and actions.. The Brain
is a most intricate and delicate organ. It serves to
transmit sensations and to receive and transmit orders from
the Mind ( Higher or Lower). Of itself it serves as a
switch-board. It shows the effect of the constant transfer
of information and orders, as minute electrical and magnetic
actions. Of itself, its automatic actions as directed by
the cerebrum relate to the maintenance of the body:
heartbeat, breathing, instinctual actions in case of danger,
digestion, and the millions of other minute duties that
direct the body and organs to cooperate with one another, to
perform any action, and to maintain health and fitness in
the body.


In other words our consciousness is always ONE, but the
fields in which it operates change and vary and we may, when
awake remember the experiences of our consciousness in those
other "fields" of experience and sensation. Dreams and
their memory is a good example. Sometimes we spend a period
of our time day-dreaming, making images in our imagination
of possible futures, analysing them and either reinforcing
them or tearing them down, and reshaping them. These,
broadly, may be of two categories: "good, and noble," or
"selfish and vicious." The quality of our motive attracts
Karma to us -- the karma of whether it is proposed or
actually done. In this way we modify our mental and
emotional environment.

But before considering how and why our continued living in
this world is an essential to progress, let us observe that
NATURE -- or, World and Universe -- have established since
untold millennia in the past, the rules and laws of life.
Their intricate action and reaction exist, and our modern
Science is continually unveiling some new evidence of this.

In other words. Nature in all her supportive complexity got
here first -- so as to support our living, as well as that
of all other beings. Her laws tend to harmonize all
diversities. Learning this and then participating
intelligently in the work of nature is the goal of every
human Soul. We adopted this curriculum many aeons ago and
the course remains to be finished. We are halfway there.

The first volume of The SECRET DOCTRINE demonstrates this as
events which shaped our cosmic home: the Earth. volume two
then shows how our own evolution was shaped. The SECRET
DOCTRINE makes clear that the character and growing
knowledge of mankind is not shaped by the form he uses, but
the physical form is evidence of the changes he makes in his
intelligence. We must remember that the hypothesis of
evolution that science has embraced, is based on a very few
fragments of skeletal remains and there may be vast
ossuaries available that demonstrate other beginnings.

We see this in all departments of Nature and in our
relations thereto. We often fail to perceive their
existence and work in and on the "moral and ethical" plane
of our being. We often persuade ourselves that if we
conceal willed actions they will remain hidden and we will
profit from our sly cunning. It is interesting to note that
those who deal in roguery always try to appear superficially
honest, frank, trustworthy, and cooperative. One wonders
how any one who perceives the difference between virtue and
vice, and we all do, desires to be hypocritical. It is a
vast puzzle. Psychologists seek to discover the root to
such behaviour as will best serve the human being in mind
as well as in desire.

The human Ego is seen to be twinned: There is the
Higher-Mind, and there is the Lower Mind. There is a vast
chasm between Wisdom and folly. Buddhi or wisdom is
universal. It defines and explains the laws of harmony that
rule the great universe, our world and ourselves. Kama or
folly (desires and passions) fail to perceive the outcome of
their proposed actions. To become efficient they borrow the
mental qualities of imagination and foresight (thus creating
the Lower Mind or Kama-Manas).

It is a study of CAUSE - EFFECT IN CHOICE AND ACTION

This attention to the CAUSES we generate when we choose our
actions (including thoughts and feelings), demands from us
total
impartiality. Unless our Lower Manasic brain-minds are
disciplined and steady, we cannot penetrate past the
confusion of
our desire-generated "fancies and dreams" to the "steady
light"
of the Spiritual-Soul (Atma-Buddhi). We must grasp the idea
of a
wisdom, common to all, that is not outside of us, but
within. Let us consider these :

"Man, made of thought, occupant only of many bodies from
time to time, is eternally thinking. His chains are through
thought, his release due to nothing else. His mind is
immediately tinted or altered by whatever object it is
directed to. By this means the soul is enmeshed in the same
thought or series of thoughts as is the mind. If the object
be anything that is distinct from the Supreme Self then the
mind is at once turned into that, becomes that, is tinted
like that. This is one of the natural capacities of the
mind. It is naturally clear and uncolored...It is movable
and quick, having a disposition to bound from one point to
another. Several words would describe it. Chameleon-like
it changes color, sponge-like it absorbs that to which it is
applied, sieve-like it at once loses its former color and
shape the moment a different object is taken up...it becomes
that to which it is devoted."	GITA NOTES p. 141-2


"No act is performed without a thought at its root either at
the time of performance or as leading to it. These thoughts
are lodged in that part of the man which we have called
Manas-the mind, and there remain as subtle but powerful
links with magnetic threads that enmesh the solar system,
and through which various effects are brought out...the
whole system to which this globe belongs is alive, conscious
on every plane, though only in man showing
self-consciousness...the slightest impression...is not lost
but only latent...in proportion to the intensity of his
thought will be the intensity and depth of the picture..."
OCEAN OF THEOSOPHY, p. 91-2

This seems to me to be enough of the principles to consider
and from that we may derive our own answers as to the nature
of and the effects of suicide on the permanent nature of
man.

Best wishes,

Dallas

============================

-----Original Message-----
From: eso9990
Sent:	Tuesday, August 13, 2002
To:
Subject:	Re: About suicide

Hello Ruben,

This is an interesting subject you introduce here,
especially in
these confusing times and on many different levels.

First I think a definition is in order. For me it would be
something
along the lines of: ANY ACTION OR SERIES OF ACTIONS THAT
WOULD LEAD
AN INDIVIDUAL OR GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS TO KNOWINGLY AND
IRREVOCABLY
PARTICIPATE IN THEIR OWN DEMISE.

That said, I would suggest two points for reflection and
consideration. First, using the above definition, I suggest
that the
JESUS of the gospel stories, committed suicide. Given his
cultural
awareness of the times in which he lived, he surely KNEW the
consequence of the public positions he took in the last
three years
of his life. Given the opportunities he was given to recant
and save
his life, he chose, NOT to revoke any of his statements that
led him
to his current dilemma. Hence, his actions led him to
participating in
his own demise.

The second important point related to this subject, is that
of
sacrifice. Can one actually make a sacrifice without
knowingly
participating in the actions that lead to it. I suggest that
if one
does not fully understand what one is doing or is not
enlightened
enough to understand the whole notion of sacrifice, then it
cannot be
a sacrifice.

Laying down ones own life to save another, seems to me to be
both,
SUICIDE and A SACRIFICE.

Louis

===============

--- In theos-talk@y..., lorelei varin de garzon
wrote:
>
> 12 august 2002 - Arlington VA
>
> My name is Ruben, first time I present some comment on the
Theo-
talk.
>
> Today, I would like to expose some comments on the subject
of
suicide.
>
> I have read some of the article of the theosophical
society and Miss
Blavatsky.
>
> But I'm still not convinced about the wise position to
adopt about
Suicide. In almost all the comment on the matter, I
understand that
to commit suicide is a sin, and the person who kill himself
would
have to assume the responsibilities of his own death in the
next life
with more difficulties (If I'm wrong, please tell me).
>
> Well, as my opinion, there is something incorrect about
these
judgments. It seems that we forget one quality important:
The
compassion for sick souls.
>
> I don't think there is any punishment at all. The only
punishment
will come from the own soul. People with Schizophrenia for
example
are living in a vicious mind in which they are turning
around and
around and around without find any solution. Horrible
disturbance of
the mind in which a soul is completely lost. Someone with
these kind
of illness will never see the light, life after life, if he
has to
assume his suicide.
>
> I've heard of a story that people like the Esquimo (who
live in the
Groenland Island) accept the notion of suicide in the case
that a
person is unsatisfied of his life and decide to leave the
material
world. What about The Japanese samurai who practice
Hara-Kiri. And I'm
pretty sure that many cases of suicide, and suicide
collective can be
shown in nature.
>
> The notion of sin still come from our western culture.
People who
has deep depression, we used to say that he is passing a
hard time but
if he past through he will feel much better with a superior
understanding of the meaning of life. The fact is there is
thousands
of people who don't pass through and find the experience so
unbearable that death is the only acceptable solution. I
think
Suicide is part of the process of knowledge. It can probably
called a
mistake but our path for a spiritual evolution always
happens because
of mistake.
>
> Well, I hope I will receive some answer about these
subject. Please
to excuse my errors of writing English, it's not my native
language.
Thanks.
>
> RUBEN
>