Theos-Talk Archives (December 2001 Message tt00127)

Hi, Etzion:

In response to your question, my motive was to
stimulate your thinking, and perhaps through you to
stimulate the thinking of others. Like tossing a
stone into a pond and creating ripples. Agree or
disagree, I think you have been sold a line of
nonsense by your rulers.

Your statement that Muslim rulers were very
enlightened overlords for Jews is a popular myth
promulgated by people like Karen Armstrong. Had there
been any truth in that, the Sephardic Jews who made up
much of the first Zionists colonies would have stayed
at home. If large numbers of people were to actually
believe it, this myth could have unfortunate
consequences. You are much better off being ruled by
Jews than your ancestors were being ruled by Caliphs,
Grand Viziers, Czars, or Polish kings.

That said, there are some other modern myths being
promulgated which also are subject to reasonable
dispute. One of these is the notion that the state is
fulfilling its responsibility to ensure the safety of
the realm and its inhabitants by promoting,
organizing, and protecting aggressive squatting in a
foreign country. Recent events suggest to this
observer that it is not.

If the brotherhood of man means anything, it must mean
that those whom one could profitably exploit at
gunpoint have rights which should be respected. If I
believe in the brotherhood of man, then I an
constrained by moral considerations from robbing
people at gunpoint even in a Hobbesian state in which
there would be no legal consequences for doing so. Of
course, as Slobodan, Ariel, and others are
discovering, the legal context has a way of shifting
to their disadvantage.

The brotherhood of man also implies trying to open the
eyes of those who have been successfully bumfuzzled by
cynical politicians. If I were to say nothing, I
would demonstrate, ipso facto, that I have no interest
whatever in the brotherhood of man.

>From a purely self interested point of view, one could
ask whether those who are not benefiting from this
exploitation should reasonably support it if it means
an increased risk to their personal safety. Would it
be rational for them to do so? I think not. No
number of attacks from helicopter gunships is going to
make the area safe so long as the squatting continues.
People are cynically being sold a bill of goods on
that one.

The only way to make peace with the Palestinian Arabs
is to convince them that they have a vested interest
in the success of the Israeli state. Cheating them,
bombing them, and then exiling them does not appear to
be working. People there are still paying the price
for the ethnic cleansing of fifty years ago. It
therefore appears that ethnic cleaning has been tried
experimentally for a reasonable period of time, and
that it has not produced good results thus far. I
would submit that it is time for a reconsideration of
this policy.

If I were an Israeli, I would (1) speak out publicly
against these flim flams and try to wake up other
members of the body politic, and (2) seriously
considering moving to some quieter part of the world.

Perhaps the brotherhood of man (singular noun) would
then evolve into a brotherhood of men (plural).

Best wishes to you in any event,

Steve

--- Etzion Becker <etvionbb@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> If I answer this, it is stricktly without having
> anything political.
> Politics is not my cup of tea. I am here to pave
> ways for the brotherhood of
> man. See more comments below.
> 
> From: Steve Stubbs <stevestubbs@yahoo.com>
> 
> 
> > Etzion:
> >
> > Thank you very much for your remarks. Some
> comments
> > and questions below.
> >
> > Etzion: "I don't respond to hate posts against
> Israel
> > and its prime minister in this site."
> >
> > I assume you are talking about the guy from
> Australia
> > who posted a news item about Sharon's indictment
> for
> > war crimes. That is simply the news and does not
> > strike me as a hate post. If the story is not
> true,
> > then you should definitely respond to it.
> 
> This was not the point, and I am quite susceptible
> for vibes. I could feel
> what is behind the post, and you can see what he
> posted me backchannel, till
> I had to block his e-mails, which I haven't done
> since I joined the
> internet. You can tell me whatsoever you want, I am
> open for everything, but
> what is your motive? Why to post to a list which
> suppose to deliver the news
> of the brtherhood of man to the world? And what
> about the other side? How
> can one rely on the press? Most of press news are
> fabrications.
> > Other than that there was some guy in Europe who
> > claimed that Hitler won the second world war, that
> he
> > is still alive, that he gets around in a flying
> > saucer, and that Blavatsky wrote The Procotols of
> the
> > Learned Elders of Zion, which he believes to
> contain
> > historical truth. These ideas are certainly
> > controversial. But he said nothing about Israel
> or
> > its indicted P.M.
> >
> There is plenty of nonesense in this world, and I
> don't understand why some
> of you deal with such things, but this is their
> thing.
> 
> > You are quite right about the long history of
> > anti-Semitism in Europe, although in fairness it
> > should be said it was mostly in Eastern and
> Central
> > Europe.
> Is it? Who burnt alive the Jews of York when the
> Crusades started? The many
> years Jews were not permitted to live in Britain,
> non stop pogroms in the
> then German teritorries and France, during the
> Medieval times, the horrors
> of the Catholic Inqusition, the persecution of the
> Jews in Spain, and the
> death of large amount of them, not to say the
> systematic rape of the women
> where ever they lived, when the local prince had the
> right of the first
> night, or just for fun, when getting drunk. All over
> Europe, all over the
> ages. Not to say what happened during WW II.
> 
> A few old buildings and a couple of decrepit
> > art museums do not a civilization make. You are
> > mistaken about the splendid treatment of Jews by
> > Muslim rulers, however. That is a myth which was
> > dreamed up to serve modern propaganda purposes.
> 
> I didn't say that it was a splendid time, except in
> Spain, during the golden
> years of Islem, where Jews took main part. I spoke
> recently with one of the
> key leaders of Jewish Iraqi community, Mr. Abraham
> Kakhila, retired vice
> mayor of Jerusalem, how it was in Iraq, and he
> simply said that they lived
> in paradise. His words. Jews, as well as other non
> Moslems, where protected
> class, so to say, there where pogroms and rapes, and
> often abduction of
> girls, (in Yemen the Jews used to marry the girls
> already when they were
> 8-9, to prevent their abduction). Etc. The King of
> Morroco didn't allow
> Germans to get the Jews, at least most of the
> community was saves. I gave
> this only that the so called leaders should seek
> what unites, where was the
> precedence for working together etc.
> 
> The first Zionists were largely Sephardic Jews who
> did not
> > agree with your take on history. Mainstream
> > historians question the way history is sometimes
> > taught in Israel. Muslim hostility toward Jews
> did
> > not begin in 1948. It also did not begin with the
> > Fatah movement in the sixties. If it had, the
> > solution to today's problems would be quite
> simple.
> 
> The first Zionists where Jews from Russia and
> Poland; Jews came from Arab
> countries, but mainly after Israel was established.
> It was not permitted to
> live the country. Moslem hostilities started already
> towards the end of the
> 19th century, and very obviously during the 20s of
> the 20th century, when
> the Moslem Brtherhood was formed in Egypt and was
> spread all over Moslem
> countries. The root cause for the conflict was that
> Palestine has been a
> holy Moslem ground, not to be sold to non Moslem.
> You cannot reason with
> that. I don't think that even today a non Moslem can
> buy land in Arab
> countries. The first Moslem pogrom against the Jews
> in Palestine was during
> 1929, when the Hebron religious fanatical Moslem
> murdered about 70 Jews, who
> lived there maybe for 1000 years, raped many of the
> women, one womam was
> ganged raped by six Arabs or so, and then burnt
> alive on a kerosine cooker.
> It is also true that part of the Arabs saved Jews in
> that pogrom. The Jewish
> population then was about 15-20% of the population,
> no threat whatsoever for
> the Arabs. Palestine, which included also what we
> call today the Kingdom Of
> Jordan, werer populated by only a few hundreds of
> thousands of people, it
> was a neglected province in the Othoman Empire, and
> its capital was
> Damascus. Jerusalem never was a Moslem capital, and
> there never was a
> Palestinan independent nation, since King David made
> an end to the
> Philistine nation, which were actually a Greek
> nation which settled a long
> the coast of Palestine about 3500 years ago or so.
> Palestine was flourishing
> till the Arabic conquest, which I think it was
> during the seventh century,
> or 50 years after Mohhamed's death, and since then
> it was neglected, its
> population was diminished, and was about 200,000 for
> most of the Arabic -
> Moslem rulership. (Before that about one million to
> two million lived in
> ancient Palestine, maybe even three millions)
> Because of its neglect, a
> large portion of the country, mainly along the
> fertile coast, was swampy,
> and it was hazardous living there, due to malaria.
> The first work of the new
> Jewish settlers was to dry the swamps, and they paid
> thoudands of lives for
> this. The Basha in Damascus didn't care at all, he
> used to come once a year
> to the province, in order to confiscate from the
> people 50% of their
> agricultural production, abducting youngsters for
> the army, and just guess
> what they did to the girls. During the 19th century
> there was uprising in
> the Galillee against the harsh Turkish rule. When it
> was over, the Turks
> built a pyramid from the heads of the rebels (Arab
> rebels). etc (all from
> memory).
> 
> > Etzion: "they know the truth about their
> *Palestinian
> > State*, and what is really going on behind the
> scenes,
> > which are veiled from CNN & CO."
> >
> > If CNN et al. are misleading us, please enlighten
> us.
> > So far as I have heard, the Palestinians have
> nothing
> 
=== message truncated ===


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