Theos-Talk Archives (December 2001 Message tt00126)

I would submit that we would have to examine the story
elements. If they were burning something, then what
was it they were burning? Did their cigars contain
merely tobacco, or were they burning a drug such as
hashish? The presence of cigars in the story weakens
the value of the story as proof that a psychical
phenomenon took place.

Von Eckartshausen claims that the eighteenth century
Freemasons, who claimed to have witnessed such strange
phenomena, were burning incense spiked with
hallucinogenic drugs which hs listed by name. There
is no way to know if he was right or not, but htis is
a hypothesis which would have to be tested before the
stories could be accepted.

It would appear that these experiments would have to
be reproduced in modern times under more rigorous
conditions to establish that this sort of thing can in
fact be done.

Blavatsky says her master was always smokinhg and
having mystical experiences. We know that she herself
smoked hash while she was in New York.

As for Jesus floating into the sky, most scholars
believe that was tacked on to the Gospel of Luke and
also the Gospel of Mark by scribes long after the
original documents were written. This appears to be
the case because early writers who cite Luke's
document know nothing of the ascension. The ascension
story in the Acts is believed to have been in the
original recension, but it was there to serve a clear
literary purpose, and it bears a striking resemblance
to another story in the apocryphal Book of the Secrets
of Enoch, which was written fifty years earlier and
known to the writer of the Acts. There appears to be
no good reason to believe that a physical acension
ever occurred, eve though a mystical ascension (in
imagination) was the basis of the Merkabah system of
Jewish meditation which he evidently practiced.

The stories of raising people from the dead are best
viewed not as historical facts, but as indications
that Jesus was believed to have been initiated into
the Yetzirah, or Creation, school of Jewish mysticism.
These mystics started with the myth that Adam was
created from a gob of clay and extrapolated from that
to the idea that they could do this themselves if they
could figure out how. Some of their teachers
speculated that the same technology could bring a dead
man to life. A dead body is, after all, a gob of
clay. There is, however, no convincing reason to
believe that they actually succeeded with this, but
each must examine the evidence and decide for
himself/herself. It appears there was a legend that
Jesus ws a member of this school, and the myth makers
then assumed he must have had the ability to create
birds from clay and raise dead men to life. That this
is doubtful is evident from the fact that the church
at Alexandria inherited this knowledge, and there is
no report of any resuscitations having been
accomplished there or any golems (artificial men
created from clay) having been employed as servants. 
Had they been doing this succesfully, someone surely
would have written about it. I suspect it was like
the alchemists transmuting lead into gold - something
they thought was possible but which they never pulled
off successfully.

As for the loaves and fishes, I am not aware that
historical criticism has yet been able to make sense
of this story. Make of it what you will.

I say this because if we are going to evaluate these
claims rationally (i.e., neither accepting nor
rejecting on blind faith) we must resort to historical
criticism and analysis.

Steve


--- Bill Meredith <bilmer@surfsouth.com> wrote:
> Daniel,
> 
> Is there a record of more impressive occult
> phenomena such as feeding
> 12,000 people with 3 fish and a loaf of bread, or
> bringing a dead person
> back to life, or rising from the dead and ascending
> through the air?
> 
> One has to wonder why true master's would behave in
> such a small fashion as
> depicted below. A master that smokes? Cigars, no
> less. And produces
> flowers from air for entertainment? Whatever for? 
> To prove to Olcott
> (very similar sound as Occult) that they can? Why
> would that be necessary?
> 
> 
> Finally, who did Olcott converse with when he claims
> to have been
> conversing with his 20 year dead mother? His mother
> or his memory of his
> mother? 
> 
> Bill
> 
> ----------
> > From: danielhcaldwell <danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com>
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: The Masters and rain in
> Olcott's apartment.
> > Date: Sunday, December 09, 2001 2:17 AM
> > 
> > Last month Brigitte M. wrote the following about
> Henry S. Olcott:
> > 
> > "Who could [accept at face value Olcott's account
> about meeting a 
> > Master in Bombay in 1879], after reading [Olcott's
> 1875 book 
> > titled] 'People of the other world' and finding
> out what this man was 
> > all capable of believing."
> > 
> > If one is inclined as Brigitte M. apparently is to
> believe that
> > Olcott was a credulous person EVEN AS EARLY as
> 1874, then please also 
> > consider Henry Olcott's following testimony from
> around February 1876:
> > 
> > "Wonder treads upon wonder. I wrote an account of
> my [first]
> > interview with the Brother I took for a Hindoo
> Brahmin, and was sorry
> > enough afterwards I had said a word about it,
> either in letter or
> > lecture. [Then] I began to doubt my own senses and
> fancy the scene
> > had all been an objective hallucination but I have
> seen him again
> > yesterday and another man was with him.
> > 
> > "Other persons have seen this man in New York. He
> is not a Brahmin,
> > but a swarthy Cypriote. I did not ask him before
> of what country he
> > was.
> > 
> > "I was reading in my room yesterday (Sunday) when
> there came a tap at
> > the door. I said 'come in' and then entered the
> Brother with another
> > dark skinned gentleman of about fifty with a bushy
> gray beard and eye
> > brows.
> > 
> > "We took cigars and chatted for a while.
> > 
> > "He said he would show me the production of
> flowers as the adepts do
> > it. At the same time pointing to the air, fancy
> --- the shadowy
> > outlines of flower after flower and leaf after
> leaf grew out of
> > nothing. The room was perfectly light; in fact the
> sun was shining
> > in. The flowers grew solid. A beautiful perfume
> saturated the air.
> > They were suspended as the down of a thistle in
> the air; each separate
> > from the other. Then they formed themselves into
> bouquets and a
> > splendid large one of roses, lilies of the valley,
> camelias, jessamine
> > and carnations floated down and placed itself in
> my hand. Then the
> > others separated again and fell in a shower to the
> floor. I was
> > stupefied with the manifestation.
> > 
> > "[Then] as he spoke [again] rain drops began
> pattering around us in
> > the room and positively a drenching shower was
> falling about us. The
> > carpet was soaked and so were my clothes, the
> books on the table, and
> > the bronzes, and clock, and photos on the mantel
> piece. But neither
> > of the Brothers received a drop.
> > 
> > "They sat there and quietly smoked their cigars,
> while mine became too
> > wet to burn. I just sat and looked at them in a
> sort of stupid
> > daze. They seemed to enjoy my surprise but smoked
> on and said
> > nothing. Finally the younger of the two (who gave
> me his name as
> > Ooton Liatto) said I need not worry. Nothing would
> be damaged.
> > The shower ceased as suddenly as it had begun.
> Then the elder man
> > took out of his pocket a painted lacquered case.
> Upon opening the
> > case a round flat concave crystal was displayed to
> view. He told me
> > to look in it.
> > 
> > "Holding it a few inches from my eye and shading
> my eye from the light
> > so that there might be no reflected rays cast upon
> the glass, the box
> > exhaled a strong spicy aromatic odor much like
> sandal wood but still
> > not just that. Whatever I wished to see, he said I
> need simply think
> > of, only taking care to think of but one thing at
> a time. I did as
> > directed.
> > 
> > "I thought of my dead mother as she used to sit
> with me twenty years
> > ago. I saw as it were a door in the far distance.
> It came nearer and
> > nearer, and grew plainer until I lost
> consciousness of external
> > objects and seemed to be in the very room I had in
> mind. Details long
> > forgotten, pictures, furniture, &c. came into
> view. My mother sat
> > there, and the conversation of twenty years ago
> was renewed.
> > I thought of a landscape --- lo! I stood upon the
> spot and mountain,
> > valley, river, and buildings lay smiling before
> me. I was there ---
> > not in my room in 34th Street.
> > 
> > "So for more than an hour, the thing went on. I
> seemed able to flit
> > from one clime to another with the speed of
> thought, and to call up
> > any spirit I wished to talk with. Things too that
> had occurred to me
> > when out of the body (all recollection of which
> had been obliterated
> > upon the return of my spirit to flesh) were shown
> me. But these were
> > only a few and unimportant, for when I seemed to
> be growing
> > inquisitive, some power prevented my seeing
> anything.
> > 
> > "Was I hallucinated? No sir, I was not. At least I
> can't imagine a
> > person being hallucinated and still be in such a
> state of mental
> > activity as I was in. I have never been
> psychologized. I am like
> > cast iron so far as sensitiveness to mesmeric
> influence while I used
> > to be a strong mesmeriser myself.
> > 
> > "The seance being over as I supposed, I asked
> Liatto if he knew Madam
> > B. He stared too. But as I thought he ought to
> know her, since her
> > flat was in the same house, I went on to discant
> [comment] upon her
> > character, her virtues, her intellectuality, &c.
> &c. The elder
> > Brother asked me to present their compliments to
> Madam and say that
> > with her permission they would call upon her.
> > 
> > "I ran down stairs, rushed into Madam's parlour
> and there sat these
> > two identical men smoking with her and chatting as
> quietly as if they
> 
=== message truncated ===


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