Theos-Talk Archives (December 2001 Message tt00115)

If I answer this, it is stricktly without having anything political.
Politics is not my cup of tea. I am here to pave ways for the brotherhood of
man. See more comments below.

From: Steve Stubbs <stevestubbs@yahoo.com>


> Etzion:
>
> Thank you very much for your remarks. Some comments
> and questions below.
>
> Etzion: "I don't respond to hate posts against Israel
> and its prime minister in this site."
>
> I assume you are talking about the guy from Australia
> who posted a news item about Sharon's indictment for
> war crimes. That is simply the news and does not
> strike me as a hate post. If the story is not true,
> then you should definitely respond to it.

This was not the point, and I am quite susceptible for vibes. I could feel
what is behind the post, and you can see what he posted me backchannel, till
I had to block his e-mails, which I haven't done since I joined the
internet. You can tell me whatsoever you want, I am open for everything, but
what is your motive? Why to post to a list which suppose to deliver the news
of the brtherhood of man to the world? And what about the other side? How
can one rely on the press? Most of press news are fabrications.
> Other than that there was some guy in Europe who
> claimed that Hitler won the second world war, that he
> is still alive, that he gets around in a flying
> saucer, and that Blavatsky wrote The Procotols of the
> Learned Elders of Zion, which he believes to contain
> historical truth. These ideas are certainly
> controversial. But he said nothing about Israel or
> its indicted P.M.
>
There is plenty of nonesense in this world, and I don't understand why some
of you deal with such things, but this is their thing.

> You are quite right about the long history of
> anti-Semitism in Europe, although in fairness it
> should be said it was mostly in Eastern and Central
> Europe.
Is it? Who burnt alive the Jews of York when the Crusades started? The many
years Jews were not permitted to live in Britain, non stop pogroms in the
then German teritorries and France, during the Medieval times, the horrors
of the Catholic Inqusition, the persecution of the Jews in Spain, and the
death of large amount of them, not to say the systematic rape of the women
where ever they lived, when the local prince had the right of the first
night, or just for fun, when getting drunk. All over Europe, all over the
ages. Not to say what happened during WW II.

A few old buildings and a couple of decrepit
> art museums do not a civilization make. You are
> mistaken about the splendid treatment of Jews by
> Muslim rulers, however. That is a myth which was
> dreamed up to serve modern propaganda purposes.

I didn't say that it was a splendid time, except in Spain, during the golden
years of Islem, where Jews took main part. I spoke recently with one of the
key leaders of Jewish Iraqi community, Mr. Abraham Kakhila, retired vice
mayor of Jerusalem, how it was in Iraq, and he simply said that they lived
in paradise. His words. Jews, as well as other non Moslems, where protected
class, so to say, there where pogroms and rapes, and often abduction of
girls, (in Yemen the Jews used to marry the girls already when they were
8-9, to prevent their abduction). Etc. The King of Morroco didn't allow
Germans to get the Jews, at least most of the community was saves. I gave
this only that the so called leaders should seek what unites, where was the
precedence for working together etc.

The first Zionists were largely Sephardic Jews who did not
> agree with your take on history. Mainstream
> historians question the way history is sometimes
> taught in Israel. Muslim hostility toward Jews did
> not begin in 1948. It also did not begin with the
> Fatah movement in the sixties. If it had, the
> solution to today's problems would be quite simple.

The first Zionists where Jews from Russia and Poland; Jews came from Arab
countries, but mainly after Israel was established. It was not permitted to
live the country. Moslem hostilities started already towards the end of the
19th century, and very obviously during the 20s of the 20th century, when
the Moslem Brtherhood was formed in Egypt and was spread all over Moslem
countries. The root cause for the conflict was that Palestine has been a
holy Moslem ground, not to be sold to non Moslem. You cannot reason with
that. I don't think that even today a non Moslem can buy land in Arab
countries. The first Moslem pogrom against the Jews in Palestine was during
1929, when the Hebron religious fanatical Moslem murdered about 70 Jews, who
lived there maybe for 1000 years, raped many of the women, one womam was
ganged raped by six Arabs or so, and then burnt alive on a kerosine cooker.
It is also true that part of the Arabs saved Jews in that pogrom. The Jewish
population then was about 15-20% of the population, no threat whatsoever for
the Arabs. Palestine, which included also what we call today the Kingdom Of
Jordan, werer populated by only a few hundreds of thousands of people, it
was a neglected province in the Othoman Empire, and its capital was
Damascus. Jerusalem never was a Moslem capital, and there never was a
Palestinan independent nation, since King David made an end to the
Philistine nation, which were actually a Greek nation which settled a long
the coast of Palestine about 3500 years ago or so. Palestine was flourishing
till the Arabic conquest, which I think it was during the seventh century,
or 50 years after Mohhamed's death, and since then it was neglected, its
population was diminished, and was about 200,000 for most of the Arabic -
Moslem rulership. (Before that about one million to two million lived in
ancient Palestine, maybe even three millions) Because of its neglect, a
large portion of the country, mainly along the fertile coast, was swampy,
and it was hazardous living there, due to malaria. The first work of the new
Jewish settlers was to dry the swamps, and they paid thoudands of lives for
this. The Basha in Damascus didn't care at all, he used to come once a year
to the province, in order to confiscate from the people 50% of their
agricultural production, abducting youngsters for the army, and just guess
what they did to the girls. During the 19th century there was uprising in
the Galillee against the harsh Turkish rule. When it was over, the Turks
built a pyramid from the heads of the rebels (Arab rebels). etc (all from
memory).

> Etzion: "they know the truth about their *Palestinian
> State*, and what is really going on behind the scenes,
> which are veiled from CNN & CO."
>
> If CNN et al. are misleading us, please enlighten us.
> So far as I have heard, the Palestinians have nothing
> remotely resembling a "state." Public statements by
> Barak and other leaders seem to confirm that this is
> true. Some of these leaders have implied they intend
> to keep it that way.


It is another harsh, non democratic Arab country. The new rulers sap the
people as much as they can, and taxes enter private accounts. All the
*security leaders* impose their own private taxes, like on cement trucks,
building materials etc. It all goes to their private pockets. The money
Israel is paying to PA goes to private accounts of Arafat and CO in Tel
Aviv. I make my Arab coleagues speak, I am in the field, they will tell me
what they won't tell the press. They won't dare to say the truth to the
cameras. What you see on TV is all well organized. They push to the fore
young children to clash with the Israeli soldiers, while the adults stay
behind, shooting at the Israeli soldiers, who have to open fire, hence large
amounts of casulties amongst the youth. The adult Arab soldiers don't like
to clash so much tete-a-tete with the Israeli soldiers, they don't like to
die. I have many very descent Arab friends, and I don't understand why all
the Palestinan scum took over. They blame us, the Israelis, for imposing
these ex cons on them. I know in person what Arafat army did in Lebanon -
systematic rape of women, including married women in front of their
husbands. I have in my archives a photo of a Labanese girl (during 1982),
whose mother told us how three Arafat soldiers raped her in the field. When
she went to compain to one of the officers, he raped her too; etc. I hope
the Palestinian people will have the proper leadership they deserve, cast
all those blood thirsty *religious leaders*, who have key responsibilitry
for the endless war in the Middle East. Take Mr. Haj Amin El Husseni, Mufti
of Jerusalem during the 30-40th of the 20th century. He has key
responsibility for creating hostilities. He had to flee the country when his
activities became too dangerous for the British regime, found shelter with
Hitler in Berlin, where he spent the war years, being provided with women by
the Germans, and kept on his plans for the final solution of the Jews in
Palestine along the method of Hitler. During 1944 he convinced German
intelligence, or maybe Himler himself, to send a few German spies into then
Palestine, with lethal poison, to poison the wells of Tel Aviv. The were
caught by the British on time.

> I would also be interested in your opinions regarding
> the "setlement movement" which has been blamed for
> most of the unrest. Here is what we seem to be
> getting from the media:

It is most debated issue amongst Israelis themselves. Some say we got more
than the nations prescribed the Jews during 1947, and some say that due to
Arab behaviour over the years, they cannot be trusted, and Israelis must
settle everywhere, to ensure Israeli presence in strategic locations, etc.
Just learn what your nations have been doing since millennia - the winner
takes it all. All the Arab nations were taken by sword, All European nations
took their lands by force, see what happened in the Americas, Australia, did
they ask permission from the local *natives* to tread on their land? The
entire humankind is guilty of this sin, and all of the sudden you became
cute on us?

> (1) Some other guy, whom you do not even know, has
> decided he would like to squat on the land of yet
> another person you do not even know,
>
> (2) So long as the dispossessed person is an Arab, the
> Israeli government supports this and evicts the owner
> of the land from his own property and even from his
> country in some cases. That land is then transferred
> to the squatter on the grounds that it was given to
> his ancestors by God.
>
> (3) As more squatters move in, the new squatters
> demand more land on which to squat. More Palestinians
> then get evicted. This all takes place within what we
> are assured is a sovereign Palestinian state, which
> has been guaranteed its own army, its own air force,
> etc. Despite Palestinian sovereignty, it is enforced
> by an outside power which brings in troops to assert
> its will against the will of the citizens of sovereign
> Palestine and against the express wishes of the
> sovereign gobernment of sovereign Palestine.
>
> (4) Some resentful individuals then engage in
> resistance activities, some of which are clearly
> illegitimate. We saw this recently.
>
> (5) Rather than deal with that in a sensible manner,
> the Israeli government resumed their practice of
> shooting down unarmed civilians and firing at
> undefended targets. To avoid a diplomatic solution,
> they began this with alacrity. According to news
> reports, this started Monday and continues today. It
> appears it will go on and on and on.
>
> (6) Some Israeli leaders have allegedly started
> blatantly referring to the squatter movement as ethnic
> cleansing. But instead of doing a Slobodan, which
> proved highly risky to the professional smugglers who
> used to run Yugoslavia, they are ethnically cleansing
> the area on the installment plan. At the rate they
> are going, that surely means several more decades of
> war.
>
Again, this is a political controversial issue which I don't wish to
comment. I have my views. Both Israelis and Arabs won't like my views. The
land simply doesn't belong to anyone. No one has any right to draw lines on
Earth and claim, this is mine; this is all part of the human rebellion
against God, maybe another issue, but hints to the direction of the key
solution. selfish people, both sides, have no claim for anything.

> The upshot is that the benefit to you personally is
> zilch and the risk to you personally is significantly
> increased. The risk/reward ratio from your
> perspective is therefore mathematically infinite.
> (The result of dividing by zero.)
>
> It seems to me it makes sense for those Israelis who
> are not West Bank and Gaza area squatters to make it
> clear to their politicians they do not want to be
> placed in danger so some other fellow who does not
> even live in their country can deprive a complete
> stranger of Arab descent of his right to own property.
> I am utterly mystified why anyone except the
> squatters themselves would support such a policy. It
> seems like just common sense would turn Israelis
> against such a policy. The fact that most people are
> not capable of thinking and reasoning is the only
> apparent explanation for this mystery.

Again, I think you already stated it, the war didn't start during 1967, when
greedy Israel invaded the Arab territories. It was another war of survival,
and I remember well Arab solemn promise to the Jews about their fate -
killing the men and raping the women. One of my Arab workers assured me that
this is what they are going to do after their victory. My brother, who
fought during the 1948 war, told me that they divided the women and the
children between themselves, they expected an easy gain. Etc. It is easy to
start a war, but you never know its aftermath. You are dealing above with
the evil by- products of war. The Arab nations declared war against Israel,
against the will of the international community, deported their Jews and
confiscated all their properties. etc. Hate begets hate. Most of Israelis
suffer from the rigors of war. Almost at every home you see photos of dear
ones who died in wars and terrorist attacks.


> Even more outrageous is the fact that previous US
> administrations have apparently cheered the squatters
> on, despite the fact that this policy puts their own
> citizens at risk. Fortunately, the Bush
> administration seems to have reversed at least that
> aspect of their policy.


The Americans don't care about Jews nor Arabs. They have their own
interests. They see the world from a different perspective than we can see.
They are now the super power, and they think they can do with the world as
they please. Not so, America has a spiritual mission, and she knows it, even
subconsciously. She can use its awesome power to establish freedom and peace
on Earth. They better off take this responsibility, which at least they
claim to do. Time will tell. Be optimistic, as I am.

> I agree with you "that humankind is one body." I
> assume that includes Arabs who live in the West Bank
> and Gaza and who own land considered ripe for
> confiscation by others. If so, let us hope others in
> that area of the world will see the same view. People
> like you are the only hope there is for peace.
>
> If you agree, spread the word. Open some eyes. Tell
> people their leaders are not representing their best
> interests.
>
> If I don't know squat, please show me the error in my
> reasoning.
>
> Many blessings,
>
> Steve
We, the *spiritual people* better off take our spiritual responsibility,
because all the leaders in the world are ignorant, and no solution will come
from material adjustments. It is establishing ignorance within ignorance.
The world depends on us. Good luck, Etzion