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RE: Re: theosophy AND THE PRESENT VIEWS OF: TS, ULT, Krishnamurti & Besant

Oct 31, 2001 05:15 AM
by dalval14

Wednesday, October 31, 2001


Dear Joe:

I really don't know how to satisfy you.

The paradox you set up can only be resolved, I think, if one
considers the evident purposeful activities of all beings,
creatures, men, planets, and ultimately the UNIVERSE.

Of course Patanjali wrote that "the universe exists for the
Soul's experience." But one might say how to prove there is a

The Universe is evident enough, even if we don't fully know it.
It will take many incarnations to "know" it fully. Do we have
time? Have we the Will to try to do that ? and the patience ?

It also implies that "WE" ( I assume this is the Atma the HIGHER
SELF) and that the KNOWER is our MIND faculty, and the universe
to be known is always the "manifested" aspect of the ONE , But,
the ONE ITSELF (?), we apparently will always be struggling to
know. And there is the paradox.

As to the Universe, there are also many views as to its extent,
complexity, responsiveness, etc...

In such a case apparently neither seem to go any further. Yet, I
"intuit" that they do -- or is it glock? (as one Author

However, shall we "play" with this some more?

That is NOT the case with Theosophical studies, it is suggested
there that the true nature of both the "Teacher" and the
"student" be sought for and identified. Theosophy says that
fundamentally they are each "aspects" of the same UNIVERSAL and

What makes the difference? An old Hindu saying (as I recollect
it from a childhood tale, perhaps it was a part of the Nasadiya
Hymn of the Rig Veda, or somethig similar ( R V, X.v.129) goes:

The SPIRIT being ONE, reposed formless, motionless and without

It this UNIVERSAL THOUGHT/SELF a desire arose. The first
differentiation -- A DESIRE.

In this existent/non-existent GERM, a thought, a desire, a will

Let manifestation bring contrast. Let LAW operate. Let BEINGS
appear, let those many be mirrors of the ONE as it is in its
unformed, incalculable, unrealizable SELF.

And from the seeming darkness surrounding the "pavilions" of the
ever-unknowable ONE flowed out contrast, beings of matter,
Spirit, Life, and freedom to exist.

Then, further, it is said --


As it had nothing else to use to make comparisons, IT said: --
Let there be a "mirror." and forthwith the ONE SPIRIT made of
itself the ONE and the UNIVERSAL MIRROR. Since this did not
resolve the difficulty IT further resolved that the "MIRROR'
ought to shatter -- and from its incalculable fragments, form the
base in this PRIMORDIAL MATTER, of the many "beings". But,
further, all these beings, which were also SPIRIT and MATTER, did
not recognize these sources in themselves, it is/was because they
had temporarily lost the power of the DIVINE and UNIVERSAL
VISION. I would call this an attempt at rationalizing. But it
also suggests there is a fact there.

[I found this marvelous statement in The SECRET DOCTRINE (II
176): "Desire first arose in IT that was the primal germ of
Mind. and which Sages, searching with their intellect in their
HEART found to be the connecting link between being and
non-being." I think this was repeated in THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY
under KAMADEVA in the form I use above.

I found those statements very suggestive. [Also the Rig Vedic
hymn, one version of it, is given, I think in The SECRET

The third factor that is seldom referred to or identified is the
MIND. -- a detached entity with the inherent power to "see" both
SPIRIT and MATTER, and view the interplay of those opposed forces
in the Universe. It was also capable of observing the effect of
all the conjoint impacts of positive and negative occult
electricity -- which causes ROTATION and the VORTICES of life in
Matter forms as impelled by their inherent fragments of "SPIRIT."

The concept of universal evolution, and the process of raising
the intelligence inherent in the "students" to the level of the
"Teacher" (through the process of reincarnation and with the
helpful assistance of impersonal and totally sensitive KARMA ).

If this is not considered, then the purpose of this vast
assemblage of interactive intelligences has no reasonable
meaning -- and if that is taken to be the case, then there is
absolutely no purpose to anything.

But that is no solution to actuality. There must be a REASON for
this present sense of personality, and INDIVIDUALITY and for the
distinction between what is commonly designated "right" and
"wrong." How is this to be discovered? Are we not logically
driven to consider a universal condition of equitable, sensitive
and utterly exact give and take? I mean by this, the operation
of Karma in Nature as well as in man?

But if you are convinced that the non sequitur you used to answer
me with is correct there is very little else that can be said.
But -- I may be quite wrong in saying this.

Best wishes,



-----Original Message-----
From: J-- F------
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: THEOSOPHY and its modifications in TS, ULT,
Krishnamurti & Besant

Reminds me of a Sufi story. A student finds "the perfect
teacher" and says
"Aha. For years I have been searching for the perfect teacher."
teacher replies: "For years I have been searching for the
perfect student".


-----Original Message-----
From: []
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: TS, ULT, Krishnamurti & Besant

Dear Joe:

It depends on the nature of the TEACHER. He is either the HIGHER
SELF (a "ray" of the UNIVERSAL DIVINE SPIRIT -- ATMAN) or the
animal-human self that is not fully a reflection of the DIVINE
EGO. In which case those teachings are distorted.

We, who are the recipients of advice (see TRANSACTIONS OF THE
BLAVATSKY LODGE, pp 66-76) from the HIGHER SELF, nightly, have to
purify the brain-mind here and now so as to receive the impact of
those nightly conferences and remember them.

That's how I see it.

Best wishes,



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