Theos-Talk Archives (February 2001 Message tt00152)

February 23, 2001


Dallas offers a few notes below:


D

=======================

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry S [mailto:gschueler@earthlink.net]
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 7:25 AM
To: Theosophy Study List
Subject: Re: One & Many

<<We THINK either from the Spiritual level of
BUDDHI-MANAS or from the Earthy "KAMA-MANAS" .way or method.>>

Buddhi-manas is intuitive thinking, while kama-manas
is emotional thinking. I wouldn't consider buddhi-manas
as "spiritual" per se.

DTB	As a contrast to BUDDHI (or the universal WISDOM of
accumulated experience) the Kama-Manasic mode of thought is
physical-self limited and bound, and H.P.B. in the KEY says very
little if anything remains for DEVACHANIC assimilation. And
might be carried forward to the PERMANENT RECORD of the
EGO/MONAD. If true, then this ought to encourage to
substantially raise the ideal and spiritual level of our
constantly CREATIVE and daily thinking.

======================================
I see it, unless we have the broad and unfettered concepts of
eternity, illimitableness of SPACE, as metaphysical principles,
we cannot adjust our earth-limited and "physical-limited" thought
(the brain-mind) which is usually limited to time, place and
consciousness (circumstances involving Kama and Manas).>>

The way I see it, throwing around words like "eternity" and
"illimitable" is mental gymnastics which is as limiting
as anything else. I don't see how this "adjusts" the brain-mind,
but rather it seems to me that such concepts simply give the
brain-mind a very false sense of spirituality. Spirituality
cannot be gained or viewed or even understood via the
brain-mind no matter what words we use. Spirituality is
a transcendence of the brain-mind (and manas) altogether.

DTB	Agreed that pointless "mental gymnastics are quite a waste
of valuable time. In fact this whole discussion on metaphysics
might be considered so, unless for purposes of finding out some
base or source the very deep thinkers of our times look into that
which underlies concepts such as all the "virtues," Why are there
any and what is the distinction between "vice" and "virtue."
There is almost no discussion on these -- Why this shyness? That
would be an interesting psychological question; the concept
that KARMA is immutable and all-powerful. What is the cause and
purpose of that?

==================================



<<Buddhi by definition is Mulaprakriti ( UNIVERSAL PURE
SUBSTANCE -- see in T. Glossary SUDDHA SATTVA -- as an instance)
it is also called MULA (root) PRAKRITI or, (SUBSTANCE/MATTER)>>

I don't understand this equivalence. I recall somewhere in
the literature that buddhi was on the fourth plane downward
which is the causal plane, and that atma was on the third
downward, the lowest spiritual plane. If so, then buddhi
can't be mulaprakriti which is much higher. Isn't buddhi
supposed to be the "vehicle" for atma? And its ray, in the
sense of being on a lower plane?


DTB	Levels have nothing to do with the fact that it is a
necessary link between ABSOLUTELY PURE SPIRIT, and the mess we
are mentally, psychologically and physically in the earth of
ours. What is our relating to the STARS ? if there is one can
we find and determine it? What good doe it do to us ?

==================================


<<KAMA is both the primordial CAUSE (which has infinite
regression -- no "STARTING POINT". As "DESIRE" (see S.D. II 176
top) [ or KAMADEVA -- it has no lower or personality oriented
and LIMITED OBJECTIVES. >>

This definition seems wrong. Tanha is the desire that causes
re-inbodiment. I thought kama was associated with emotions,
or is that just the Besant-Leadbeater view?

DTB	TANHA, as far as I can determine is thirst for physical
clinging to living on and in this earthly physical matter It is
the cause of rebirth and reincarnation. [ see S.D. I 44 II
109-110; VOICE 15; H.P.B. Articles (ULT) II 40; T. Glos.
319 ]
==============================

<< At that stage one might call it the
Universal Force of KARMA in an impersonal way, as it represents
the total balance of the karma (good and evil) which entangles
all the MONADS (Units of spirit/matter).>>

How can "universal" karma ever be personal? I think rather
that it is equivalent to collective karma. Karma has nothing
at all to do with good and evil, at least in my view. Good
and evil are cultural/family/religious/national labels
that people put on things according to their own viewpoint.
I think that monads are entangled due to ignorance, which
in turn leads to karma as a result.

DTB	UNIVERSAL KARMA (to me) is the cause of every Manvantara and
Pralaya and involves all beings incident thereto. It overlays
(or underlies) the personal KARMA of each MONAD and may be said
to the moving constructive and harmonizing force that both causes
evolution from time to time, and presides over the compassionate
and merciful aspect of the LAW that continually adjusts cause to
effect. Each of us are "obscurely" aware of this, we know that
prayers and laudations to a personal God, or through some priest,
produce nothing.

============================================


<<Two great schools of philosophy meet here: The Trans Himalayan
RAJA YOGA and the ancient Hindu Brahmanical School of the
Adwaitees . >>



What is the first that you refer to? Raja Yoga only exists
as such in India as far as I know.


In another posting today I refer to this and show where it can be
contacted. RAJA-YOGA is universal and is not confined to a
territory, nation of era -- it is THEOSOPHY, UNIVERSAL and
permanent.
======================================

<<How does one
reconcile SPIRIT with FORM and SUBSTANCE (Matter) unless there is
that stable entity of CONSCIOUSNESS (the MIND ) which is always
equidistant between the two and sees all contrasts.>>

If you are saying here that matter and spirit only exist
in the mind, then I would agree with you. These two can
only be reconciled by seeing them as two sides of a duality.

DTB	It takes a THIRD base from which both can be evaluated. The
ABSOLUTENESS as an eternal background forms one of these (thirds)
but as it does not and cannot participate in the limits of
manifestation and Kama-Manasic thought, its deputy UNIVERSAL MIND
(MAHAT) is posited in S.D. Vol. I. MAHAT is further distributed
among every one of the milliards of MONADS that constitute the
on-going evolutionary process. In a way one might say they
constitute the STABLE base from which each of us (as HIGHER
EGOS -- BUDDHI-MANAS) can study and realize the constant
interactions of SPIRIT and MATTER -- as the polar opposites of
the MONADS. If you like this makes the MONAD a triple entity,
and if to that the ABSOLUTE may be added, it is the Pythagorean
TETRAKTYS, the mystic 4 -- the BASE OF ALL UNIVERSE and of NATURE
progressing under UNIVERSAL LAW. [ T. Glos, p. 326, also in S.D.
I 88-9 344 S.D. II 24 598-603 660 and many more ]

=========================


<<In that
sense I would hold that it is the ever-present representative of
the UNIVERSAL and always undefined CONSCIOUSNESS of the ABSOLUTE
which is truly without bounds or definitions in terms of our
time, space or motion.
Best wishes,
Dallas<<

Whoa! Are you saying that consciousness=absolute or that
consciousness is a characteristics of the absolute. In
either case, why would you think that? Or are you refering
to consciousness OF the absolute which would be equivalent
to samadhi?

DTB	Consciousness (as I understand it) is "seeing along with."
Awareness, Idea, thought.

As the ABSOLUTE INCLUDES ALL -- so that as potential, at least is
included. If we try in thought to make distinctions, we tend to
make and apply our limited views to the ABSOLUTE, which is always
far before (in our concept of TIME), and far more inclusive than
anything we know of in our present limited experience); and yet,
there are analogies which give partial understanding.

DTB	As I understand it, there is TURIYA a state of consciousness
that TRANSCENDS SAMADHI as our attempts at meditating here and
now fall far short of ALL-KNOWINGNESS. And I would not credit
anyone with that kind of perception unless they were indeed on
the threshold of Buddha hood as illustrated in the last 5 pages
and footnotes OF THE VOICE OF THE SILENCE.

In this regard there is a wide difference between our concept of
virtue, compassion, mercy, self-sacrifice, and the selfishness of
our present physical existence in which we fear all eyes and
hands as potential weapons raised against our "tanha-like" living
in the present physical body.

Best wishes as always

Dallas

=========================

Jerry S.


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