Theos-Talk Archives (December 2000 Message tt00091)

December 27, 2000

Dear Gene:

Quite a bit to think over. May I interject some comments below
in the body of yours?

Also in Theosophical consideration is the fact that each
principle is 7-fold, as it has a range that dovetails with the
other principles at their level.

So "Thought" would be 7-fold. "Feelings" also, and presumably
meditation would also have at least 7 levels of consideration to
dwell on. Not so very simple. But, to disentangle them and
assign any classifications meaning, I would suggest a common
understanding -- as you do -- so I hazard adding my thoughts and
definitions to your categories, Very interesting as we seem to
have few words in English to be exact with.
Incidentally: as far as I know there are categories of
"meditation." Dispassion may remove motives of selfishness.
Universalization may install motives of use for a plurality of
brother souls- beings-monads... But to me the important fact is
that we are that SINGULAR CONSCIOUSNESS, which unmodified,
persists in its unique nature as an essential UNIT, and is
different from other -- even though it recognizes analogetic and
similar characteristics in those -- corresponding to its own
faculties, but not identical.

Yet, in the theosophical scheme, each Principle whether Universal
or Individual inter-corresponds with the rest. Buddhi
(universality and "heart") with the Mind-manas or the mental
faculties of thought, e=memory and anticipation. Feelings,
desires and passions (Kama) -- so difficult to distinguish from
Thought and Mind. These three levels seem so very important to
recognize, organize and then utilize --- once we become aware of
them. They say that all advance and progress is in and through
the MIND. "the fight is in the Mind."

Let me try below to add what I understand of your comments.

Best wishes,
Dallas


=========================================

-----Original Message-----
From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 10:44 AM
Cc: Esoteric Science
Subject: INTUITION What is it?


Dear -----

This is concerning Dal's excellent discussion concerning the
intuition.

I'd like to offer the following:

=================================

DTB LET ME ADD SOME COMMENTS AS WE GO DOWN THE LIST

= = = = = = = = = =


1. Logoic DTB COMMENCING MANIFESTATION in 3
aspects:

1 a continuation of past manifestation -- Karmic links
and fields

2 projecting a plan whereby in a fresh manifestation the
old patterns would have representative positions and conditions
that enabled each component of the new to awaken and revive with
the old Karma in place, an unchanged continuity.

3 Activating in the present such positions and
conditions.


2. Monadic DTB THIS IS THE RETURN OF THE ETERNAL AND
IMMORTAL SPIRIT/MATTER COMBINATIONS -- and this is in conjunction
with 1, above. Monads are truly immortals.


3. Atmic DTB THIS REPRESENTS THE ABSOLUTELY PURE AND
UTTERLY BALANCED, JUST AND WISE CONDITION WHICH is one extreme
of the MONAD.. (My view.)


4. Buddhic DTB REPRESENTS THE SUMMATION AS WELL AS THE
DETAILED MEMORIES OF ALL EXPERIENCES of every MONAD as well as
of the WHOLE. It is the "TRUTH" and "FACT" base from which Manas
(Higher Mind) is able to draw summations of the LAWS in Nature.


5. Manasic DTB UNIVERSAL MIND (or MAHAT) REPRESENTS THE
ACTIVE AGENT WHICH TRANSFERS the laws and plans of the SPIRITUAL
PORTION of the BALANCED EQUATION to the denser planes where the
MONADS, engaged in their evolution there, need a guide, a goal,
and the assurance of there being a logical and complete
continuity to their existence and the evolutionary stream. It is
the plane of active consciousness, of balance, of reasoning,
memory, and all the mental faculties..


5A [ Kamic ] DTB	THIS OUGHT TO BE INCLUDED HERE as it forms
with Manas the necessary linkage between the higher and the lower
faculties and principles. The Kamic Principle in man is the one
that is called desire and passion.. It is separate from the
mental faculties, processes and tools.


5B [Pranic ] DTB	THIS IS THE PRINCIPLE OF LIFE AS A VIVIFYING
CURRENT IN ALL THINGS. It has 2 aspects: Life-giving, and
death-giving to any form. It is intimately related to KARMA, and
works through Kama (desire & Passions) , and the Astral or
(electro-magnetic) model form. Then monads that we call the
"skandhas" impregnated with the motives of our thoughts, feelings
and acts form part of either of these two groups.

[ In the S.D. you will find in Vol. II, p.176 the passage "Desire
first arose in IT, that was the primal germ of mind, and which
sages seeking with their intellect discovered to be the link
between BEING and non-being." Some of the comments on this old
verse are also to be found in S.D. Vol. II pp. 578-9. Quite
interesting. ]


6. Astral DTB THIS IS THE ELECTRO-MAGNETIC
aspect of Nature and it forms on the plane of FORCES and POWERS,
the basis on which the physical atoms and molecules adhere in
the patterns set by KARMA and by PRANA (Vitality) according to
the KARMA of the MONAD which uses them, and to which they look
for the experiences that they can include in their memories and
which will either ennoble or debase them -- depending on the
motive of the MONAD which is at the forefront (or center)..

7. . Etheric Physical DTB THIS APPEARS TO BE THE ASTRAL
BODY before described.


9. Physical body DTB IN WHICH WE LIVE AND
EXPERIENCE NOW.


========


1. Beyond, beyond all possible thought ABSOLUTENESS -- Finite
minds are unable to describe.


2. Beyond all possible thought DTB ABSOLUTENESS and
imperishable AKASIC TABLETS


3. All possible thought DTB SAME Recorded in the
Akashic tablets imperishably


4. Latent Thought DTB ABSOLUTENESS


5. Actual Thought DTB relates to ABSOLUTE but
particularized as to evolving being. Gives the power of
"creation" to this component of the WHOLE. Base of FREE-WILL
and hence of the modifications of Karma and of future experience
of the gradually progressing Ego-MONAD..


6. Feeling DTB Emotion and desire originates in
one who FEELS INCOMPLETE, and desires some kind of "possession,"
so as to feel more perfect or more "complete." . Usually chooses
some perishable and short-lived object. May assume that the
feelings he/she generates are reciprocated. Occasionally when
rejected will act as a tyrant to subjugate (AND FORCE) the
object(s) of his desire to comply to his/her wishes. Source of
conflicts of all kinds, some involving hosts of other beings --
wars, conquests, political and theological (by priest-crafts of
all religions without any exceptions) attempts at dominance and
subjugation.


7. Behavior DTB Self determined. Willful acts,
thoughts and feelings. Based on Lower Mind (Kama-Manas).
Ephemeral and constantly changing. Held in check and control
only by the HIGHER MANAS ( Buddhi-Manas).


1. Solar Logoic Consciousness DTB A DUTY TOWARDS
THE SOLAR SYSTEM, PLANETS, AND THE RELATIONS WITH OTHER SOLAR
SYSTEMS. A MONAD which has achieved one of the highest
responsibilities ( A "Planetary Spirit," Dhyan-Chohan, Buddha,
Manu, etc...) through self-sacrifice (meaning every thought,
desire and act is directed towards the service of others). It
would always be perfectly in tune with UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS.
and ABSOLUTE KARMA. OF THE WHOLE HOST of beings involved in the
common fields of evolution in some system.
We, our MONAD, and the conjoined Principles that give us an
entitative self feeling and self-knowledge, These represent
analogetically this kind of Central CONSCIOUSNESS, to the
billions of Monads having lesser experience that cluster around
US and give us viability on the various planes we (as MONADS) are
supposed to be responsible for.

Hence, of course, the extreme responsibility we have: to conduct
our lives as virtuously as possible. This is one of the crucial
points in evolution for us. Our MONAD is on a balance point.
Will IT/we employ the forces and powers we have at present
acquired and the mental vision we have so far developed, to
assist or to retard UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION,? This could be said to
start with ourselves and end, finally, with worlds and systems of
worlds.


2. Planetary or Group Consciousness DTB Seems to
represent the totality of the consciousness of all the MONADS of
and in a Planet that is evolving.


3. Self-Consciousness DTB (of the True Self) SPIRITUAL
IDENTITY AS SHARED WITH ALL OTHER SPIRITUAL BEINGS. ATTUNED TO
THE INFINITE PURPOSE OF ALL BEINGS.. All virtues would be
concentrated in this awareness and absolutely nothing that would
be disruptive of divine and ultimate purpose could be present.


4. Pure Mathematics DTB MANAS, LOGIC, RATIOCINATION
without any motive of self-interest. Yet, at their base there is
always a motive of some kind, this has to be discovered each one
for themselves. It is part of the tests (devised by great
nature) to discover if the evolution of any MONAD (and the monads
around it which form its "personality") have, indeed, reached
the point of ultimate harmlessness, compassion and generosity due
to itself (as a member of the System) and, to all else that lives
and deserves our consideration. I think this is a most important
point.


5. Scientific Wisdom DTB I would say: USE OF THE MIND TO
REDISCOVER (and prove) THE RULES AND LAWS OF NATURE.

NATURE ALREADY CONTAINS EVERYTHING AND ALL LAWS.

WE ARE NOT AWARE OF THIS BUT LOOK FOR THE PHENOMENA OF STRESS TO
DEMONSTRATE TO US THE EXISTENCE OF THE BALANCING POWERS THAT
REACT AGAINST UNUSUAL AND UNNECESSARY CONSTRAINT. Our sense of
justice, impartiality, universality and above all FREE-WILL (see
S.D. II 484 just below the middle of the page).


6. Idealism and Devotion DTB AN EXPRESSION OF
PERFECTION IN EXISTENCE. Pure Spirit. The expression of the
highest level of the Desire and Feeling nature (S.D. II 176) A
universalizing of all and every aspect of our being, and
"character."


7. Behavior(Ceremonial order, ritual and magic) DTB
This appears to be a CONTRIVED ATTEMPT TO IMITATE NATURE IN PART.
Usually includes rites, ceremonies, worship and outward
conformity to social disciplines administered by theologians or
politicians. These become (or are made into) the norms of a
society or a culture.

They have no LASTING value (except to those who desire to be
noticed as 'outwardly' the "leaders" of a culture, society, town,
region, etc...They are shams and pretense in such cases.

[ The REAL NOBILITY OF CHARACTER is reflected in the constant
small and generous acts and assistance that such individuals,
advanced in real evolutionary progress, render to others, with no
desire for any "return." ] Unless they actually conform to some
true and real spiritual basis all outward advertising and "show"
is quite useless and misleading to those who might be lead to
depend on the honesty and sincerity of such persons. This is
caused by an imbalance in Kama and a misleading of the Lower
Manas by such a process.


l. (Cause) DTB FROM WHERE? By whom? For what purpose?
[Lower or Higher Manasic -- selfish or selfless ?]


2. Love DTB	Of whom and by whom? Purpose? [Usually
Lower Manasic] When directed for the benefit of the whole world
it is impersonal, universal, generous and charitable -- and of
general and lasting benefit to all beings including the one
specifically approached.


3. Intellect DTB	What aspect of the MIND exercises this or
makes it available? In Theosophy it is usually (unless modified
by some qualitative expression) considered to be the Lower Manas
in action, and in conjunction with, and for the benefit of, Kama
(Desires and Passions.) These being lower-self-centered are
usually destructive and disruptive to harmony and to the balanced
life. But this can be changed when we recognize the petty limits
of such goals -- then we can widen out and universalize and
impersonalize it.


4. Love-Intellect DTB	Lower Mans in operation with
a specific object to be attained. [Selfish and Kama-Manasic ] Is
this, can this be widened to include other beings and eventually
the whole world and universe ? Changes the motive aspect.


5. Will-Intellect DTB	Power to employ the
correlation of information with a selfish objective. (Lower
Manasic -- Kama-Manasic - selfish abuse of creative power)
This also can be universalized and impersonalized for the benefit
of ALL. Changes the motive aspect.


6. Will-Love DTB	Same answer.


7. Will-Love-Intellect(effect) DTB	Same answer. Motive when
chosen makes the difference.


=====================================
Gene

The Buddhic-intuition is at level four and perhaps is the
Platonic realm of
the source of ideas like in Pure Mathematics. I'm understanding
this to
mean that Love integrates the Intellect so that the many fields
of
intellectual activity become the one intellectual activity.
======================================
DTB	UNIVERSAL LOVE does this as it impersonalizes and alters
motive -- it is generous and harmless. MOTIVE IS THE IMPORTANT
TESTING POINT AT THIS STAGE OF OUR EVOLUTION.
====================================
Gene
Life in it's many mental, emotional and behavioral aspects
becomes re-integrated as the
one, Buddhic-intuitive-contemplative Life on the Buddhic Plane(in
the Buddhic State of Consciousness).
=====================================
DTB	The Buddhi-Manasic power of CONSCIOUSNESS is by definition
universal and impersonal. It is the normal contemplative state
of any WISE man. (A mind that has ceased to be lower-self
centered.)
At present most of us do this with effort and we have trouble
disentangling the BUDDHIC conditions of IDEAL NATURE from our
distorted and selfishly centered general ways of life and
thought -- usually centered on some personal DESIRE . Meditation
and a consideration of POTENTIAL EFFECTS of our choices are tools
we can use to effect to self-guidance .towards a higher plane of
living. As we with greater ease leave the DESIRE-DOMINATED
average level of living, we may gradually assume and put into
effect the BUDDHIC way of living for the good of all, as the
Buddha might say, or as Jesus says in some of the injunctions
given in THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT (which are so little applied by
the average "Christian.")
==========================================
Gene
This is where the integrated Intellect expresses real Love as
does the Saint or the equivalent from the other ashrams. It is
this Compassion that is expressed through this glorious light of
the transpersonal Intellect that gives the Buddha his snazzy
qualities! This is the Soul expressed through the Mind.
--------------------------------------------------------
DTB	I would not distinguish the "Soul" from the "Mind." The
Mental faculty has the 3 levels already written about: 1,
Buddhis, 2. Pure thought uninfluenced by base motives, and 3.
Base thought which is selfish, personal, and
Lower-Self-centered. In all cases the Mind/Soul THINKS, reasons,
uses logic. The basis for such a power determined by the motive
either elevates the process or degrades it (and retards the whole
of evolution).
==================================

Gene

This manifests in the body of our feelings through our hearts.
We are
fools if we get this love of the heart from the intuition
confused with the
needs of the solar plexus.
=======================================
DTB	Although the Heart qualities are definitely different from
those of the Desire nature (centered --some say -- in the "solar
plexus") I do not think it is wise to locate or characterize
THOUGHT (or desire-feelings) with any particular part of the body
or its organs. I say this, because I find that Theosophy
conceives THOUGHT is CONSCIOUSNESS operating on a different
plane. The ancients held that there were particular organs in
the human body that were more influenced by the actions on
different planes and principles. But, as far as I know the
original teachers never had the opinion that the physical organ
originated or even greatly influenced the faculty or principle.
If the physical organ's influence were truly powerful, we could
not even consider such a subject, or seek to 'escape' from such
influences.
The bodily organs and parts, though mentioned in many systems,
including the Hindu and the Chinese, etc... are only SYMBOLIC.
As far as I know, the nature of our motives, feelings, thoughts,
etc... are independent of the physical centers (chakras, etc...?)
as defined in other systems -- of which the physical shell alone
remains described to us in ancient literature.
It is rare to find KEYS for the esoteric meanings concealed in
those old texts -- which if occult and esoteric cannot be read
with the "EYE-DOCTRINE" alone. ( The eye-doctrine is limited to
the translating of words, and the superficial acceptance of the
meanings as written -- or as presumed to be meant by the modern
translator).
The occult and esoteric meanings are carefully concealed within
the words, phrases and qualities (or events) described. ( The
S.D. and ISIS give many instances of this for our information.)
H.P.B. has made some of the ancient Keys available to us so that
ancient symbology can be unraveled by us as we learn how the
modern representations and interpretations of those texts have
been distorted by either interested or ignorant translators.
This is to be guarded against I think.
=====================================
Gene
Here is where the 5th level, Scientific Wisdom,
plays it's vital role. The Buddhic Wisdom is so vital to the
progress of
humanity that the Scientific Wisdom must ever be acutely aware as
to what is
genuine love, genuine compassion and what is merely genuine need,
genuine
selfish passion and rationalization. This is why I hesitate.
This is why I
am cautious. I have been a fool for all these years. What? I'm
going to
suddenly get wise? Or more likely struggle and flip and flop and
fizzle and
climb back out of holes, etc. Lord, please bless us with a sense
of humor.
====================
DTB	I fully agree. As we age in any one personality (I am
convinced of reincarnation) we begin to get a perspective as to
what is really valuable, because it is able to transcend opinion
or dogma by age and many experiences. Imperceptibly we are
constantly evaluating the STATEMENTS we were taught -- with those
actualities of our experience. This inner recorder, witness,
observer is again an proof of the immutable and eternal HIGHER
SELF in each of us, no matter what name we may give to it.
Yes a sense of humor is absolutely essential -- how else would we
be able to laugh at our blunders and then avoid them in the
future? The ambitious authority types seem to lack this sense.

================================
Gene:

Ha! I was mediating very early this morning and I was really
focusing on
TOTAL UNCONDITIONED CONSCIOUSNESS AND BARE SUBJECTIVITY as
UNCONSCIOUSNESS
and thinking that the unconscious could be of two main types:
that of a
mountain and that of our solar logos at the logoic plane. Then I
thought
that one could go into some wilderness where mankind had never
been known
and sit ever so quietly and sense the divine unconsciousness all
around,
totally undisturbed by Man. And then! Bam! It was so funny.
Here is this
serious scientist sitting ever so quietly observing the divine
unconsciousness of Nature, out in the middle of nowhere, and what
is
actually happening is the entire forest is becoming aware that
there is
about one hundred and fifty pounds of food just sitting there,
unaware and
undefended. It was so funny! You had to be there! It would be
like this
huge animate Brownie(with pecans!) entering some kindergarden
class of
hungry children merely to sit quietly and observe their natural
behavior!
Ha! Talk about observer effect! I'm weird. I had the best
laugh I've had
for years. To see that big yummy brownie sitting there taking
notes and all
those children getting closer and closer.
======================================
DTB	I have difficulty equating some of the expressions of modern
psychology with their Theosophical equivalents. They do not
always seem to mean the same thing.


Look at the words UNCONSCIOUS and UNCONSCIOUSNESS. Is the
implication there that below human CONSCIOUSNESS there is NO
CONSCIOUSNESS ? I would tend to disagree, as to my mind the
purposiveness of all beings (atoms, sub-atoms, cells, molecules,
and various other structures in just the small limits of the
physical plane and it is a type of 'matter-by-obstruction' (the
WHIRLING FAN example) I would say we need a wider spectrum of
definition. Example: What are the sub-atomic particles? Forces
and Fields with a purpose. They obey fundamental laws IN THEIR
ENVIRONMENT SET BY NATURE. Nature being ever-present, those LAWS
are being looked into by us (same of the mega-side - in
astronomy. What are 50 billion or 5,000 billion light-years of
distance to us, who are pigmy-intelligences and very small minds
indeed on our insignificant EARTH ?

Yet these same MINDS of ours are able to embrace the phenomena
and speculate on possibles and potentials in other places where
we have no present instrumentation to penetrate -- we see only
the movement of surfaces and the WHY is still unclear.

We do however have the wisdom to say that LAW must be operating
everywhere and we can trust it because of it persistence and
regularity of repetition..

Well this has been most interesting. Thank you. Wonder if what
I write is helpful.
Best wishes for 2001, et seq -- and many thanks for yours which I
reciprocate.
Dallas
----------------------------------------------------------------

Love,
Gene



----- Original Message -----
From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: "AA-SD-BN" <sd@blavatsky.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 5:32 PM
Subject: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?


> December 19, 2000
>
> I noted that INTUITION was being looked into.
>
> I recall one wise man saying years ago, when asked: "By all
> means do trust your intuition, but. Make sure that it is not
the
> intuition of a fool." Many a time I have wondered about that.
> It has made me very cautious, about my own ideas and about
> other's.
>