Theos-Talk Archives (December 2000 Message tt00093)

Dear Dallas,

Yes. Your comments are very helpful. What I gave out was to be food for
thought, sort of like a buddha made out of gingerbread, to be consumed,
digested, some absorbed, some not. It is very interesting to be able to
follow your reasoning.

I can see that whereas I am sticking to the seven planes, you are expanding
and pointing out that each of the planes as seven subplanes. Also you are
associating from planes into the seven principles which are numbered
differently than the planes but jive nonetheless, and I follow you as I'm
familiar with the different ways of numbering the principles and how Subba
Row in his comments on the Bhragava(sp?) Gita demonstrates his numbering
system. This is all good. I keep my focus better by sticking to the planes
and pondering their logical derivation: Will causes love and intelligent
activity and these three have four permutations giving seven and each of the
seven have seven, etc, and I'm constantly retreating back to the Will or the
Three Aspects(The Will and it's two effects, Love and Intellect). I might
point out that the lists of Seven are all using different words to describe
the same seven planes. One list I didn't use might be clarifying:

1.
2. Absoluteness
3. Absolute
4. Buddhic(latent thought)
5. Manasic(actual thought)
6. Astral(emotions)
7. Physical(the etheric aspect of the physical plane)


I'm finding that things go better for me if I focus on the upper three
planes using my abstract mind as best I can. I'm trying to understand these
as best I can before again cycling downward through the four "lower"
permutations of the these states of consciousness. I am the concrete and
practical minded one bridging to the abstract mind and trying to receive
through that abstract mind the latent thought, beyond actual thought, of the
buddhic intuition which is, in a very real sense, the beauty of the Atmic
state of consciousness, containing the unity of our future, for us,
perfected humanity. All of your comments are right-on and very well
reasoned. I shall not comment on them as you will further dance with them
as you choose. I will happily return to the focus of trying to understand
the perfected human intellect as it is bathed in the love beyond all
possible thought, this love the operation of the Will of God, our solar
logos. To let this divine love operate on my little evolving intellect and
one day bring me face to face with this will is rather like life itself. To
more fully participate in our mind and our consciousness and our father's
will is a trip!

Companions,
Gene


----- Original Message -----
From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 5:52 AM
Subject: RE: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?


> December 27, 2000
>
> Dear Gene:
>
> Quite a bit to think over. May I interject some comments below
> in the body of yours?
>
> Also in Theosophical consideration is the fact that each
> principle is 7-fold, as it has a range that dovetails with the
> other principles at their level.
>
> So "Thought" would be 7-fold. "Feelings" also, and presumably
> meditation would also have at least 7 levels of consideration to
> dwell on. Not so very simple. But, to disentangle them and
> assign any classifications meaning, I would suggest a common
> understanding -- as you do -- so I hazard adding my thoughts and
> definitions to your categories, Very interesting as we seem to
> have few words in English to be exact with.
> Incidentally: as far as I know there are categories of
> "meditation." Dispassion may remove motives of selfishness.
> Universalization may install motives of use for a plurality of
> brother souls- beings-monads... But to me the important fact is
> that we are that SINGULAR CONSCIOUSNESS, which unmodified,
> persists in its unique nature as an essential UNIT, and is
> different from other -- even though it recognizes analogetic and
> similar characteristics in those -- corresponding to its own
> faculties, but not identical.
>
> Yet, in the theosophical scheme, each Principle whether Universal
> or Individual inter-corresponds with the rest. Buddhi
> (universality and "heart") with the Mind-manas or the mental
> faculties of thought, e=memory and anticipation. Feelings,
> desires and passions (Kama) -- so difficult to distinguish from
> Thought and Mind. These three levels seem so very important to
> recognize, organize and then utilize --- once we become aware of
> them. They say that all advance and progress is in and through
> the MIND. "the fight is in the Mind."
>
> Let me try below to add what I understand of your comments.
>
> Best wishes,
> Dallas
>
>
> =========================================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eugene Carpenter [mailto:Ecarpent@co.la.ca.us]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 10:44 AM
> Cc: Esoteric Science
> Subject: INTUITION What is it?
>
>
> Dear -----
>
> This is concerning Dal's excellent discussion concerning the
> intuition.
>
> I'd like to offer the following:
>
> =================================
>
> DTB LET ME ADD SOME COMMENTS AS WE GO DOWN THE LIST
>
> = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> 1. Logoic DTB COMMENCING MANIFESTATION in 3
> aspects:
>
> 1 a continuation of past manifestation -- Karmic links
> and fields
>
> 2 projecting a plan whereby in a fresh manifestation the
> old patterns would have representative positions and conditions
> that enabled each component of the new to awaken and revive with
> the old Karma in place, an unchanged continuity.
>
> 3 Activating in the present such positions and
> conditions.
>
>
> 2. Monadic DTB THIS IS THE RETURN OF THE ETERNAL AND
> IMMORTAL SPIRIT/MATTER COMBINATIONS -- and this is in conjunction
> with 1, above. Monads are truly immortals.
>
>
> 3. Atmic DTB THIS REPRESENTS THE ABSOLUTELY PURE AND
> UTTERLY BALANCED, JUST AND WISE CONDITION WHICH is one extreme
> of the MONAD.. (My view.)
>
>
> 4. Buddhic DTB REPRESENTS THE SUMMATION AS WELL AS THE
> DETAILED MEMORIES OF ALL EXPERIENCES of every MONAD as well as
> of the WHOLE. It is the "TRUTH" and "FACT" base from which Manas
> (Higher Mind) is able to draw summations of the LAWS in Nature.
>
>
> 5. Manasic DTB UNIVERSAL MIND (or MAHAT) REPRESENTS THE
> ACTIVE AGENT WHICH TRANSFERS the laws and plans of the SPIRITUAL
> PORTION of the BALANCED EQUATION to the denser planes where the
> MONADS, engaged in their evolution there, need a guide, a goal,
> and the assurance of there being a logical and complete
> continuity to their existence and the evolutionary stream. It is
> the plane of active consciousness, of balance, of reasoning,
> memory, and all the mental faculties..
>
>
> 5A [ Kamic ] DTB THIS OUGHT TO BE INCLUDED HERE as it forms
> with Manas the necessary linkage between the higher and the lower
> faculties and principles. The Kamic Principle in man is the one
> that is called desire and passion.. It is separate from the
> mental faculties, processes and tools.
>
>
> 5B [Pranic ] DTB THIS IS THE PRINCIPLE OF LIFE AS A VIVIFYING
> CURRENT IN ALL THINGS. It has 2 aspects: Life-giving, and
> death-giving to any form. It is intimately related to KARMA, and
> works through Kama (desire & Passions) , and the Astral or
> (electro-magnetic) model form. Then monads that we call the
> "skandhas" impregnated with the motives of our thoughts, feelings
> and acts form part of either of these two groups.
>
> [ In the S.D. you will find in Vol. II, p.176 the passage "Desire
> first arose in IT, that was the primal germ of mind, and which
> sages seeking with their intellect discovered to be the link
> between BEING and non-being." Some of the comments on this old
> verse are also to be found in S.D. Vol. II pp. 578-9. Quite
> interesting. ]
>
>
> 6. Astral DTB THIS IS THE ELECTRO-MAGNETIC
> aspect of Nature and it forms on the plane of FORCES and POWERS,
> the basis on which the physical atoms and molecules adhere in
> the patterns set by KARMA and by PRANA (Vitality) according to
> the KARMA of the MONAD which uses them, and to which they look
> for the experiences that they can include in their memories and
> which will either ennoble or debase them -- depending on the
> motive of the MONAD which is at the forefront (or center)..
>
> 7. . Etheric Physical DTB THIS APPEARS TO BE THE ASTRAL
> BODY before described.
>
>
> 9. Physical body DTB IN WHICH WE LIVE AND
> EXPERIENCE NOW.
>
>
> ========
>
>
> 1. Beyond, beyond all possible thought ABSOLUTENESS -- Finite
> minds are unable to describe.
>
>
> 2. Beyond all possible thought DTB ABSOLUTENESS and
> imperishable AKASIC TABLETS
>
>
> 3. All possible thought DTB SAME Recorded in the
> Akashic tablets imperishably
>
>
> 4. Latent Thought DTB ABSOLUTENESS
>
>
> 5. Actual Thought DTB relates to ABSOLUTE but
> particularized as to evolving being. Gives the power of
> "creation" to this component of the WHOLE. Base of FREE-WILL
> and hence of the modifications of Karma and of future experience
> of the gradually progressing Ego-MONAD..
>
>
> 6. Feeling DTB Emotion and desire originates in
> one who FEELS INCOMPLETE, and desires some kind of "possession,"
> so as to feel more perfect or more "complete." . Usually chooses
> some perishable and short-lived object. May assume that the
> feelings he/she generates are reciprocated. Occasionally when
> rejected will act as a tyrant to subjugate (AND FORCE) the
> object(s) of his desire to comply to his/her wishes. Source of
> conflicts of all kinds, some involving hosts of other beings --
> wars, conquests, political and theological (by priest-crafts of
> all religions without any exceptions) attempts at dominance and
> subjugation.
>
>
> 7. Behavior DTB Self determined. Willful acts,
> thoughts and feelings. Based on Lower Mind (Kama-Manas).
> Ephemeral and constantly changing. Held in check and control
> only by the HIGHER MANAS ( Buddhi-Manas).
>
>
> 1. Solar Logoic Consciousness DTB A DUTY TOWARDS
> THE SOLAR SYSTEM, PLANETS, AND THE RELATIONS WITH OTHER SOLAR
> SYSTEMS. A MONAD which has achieved one of the highest
> responsibilities ( A "Planetary Spirit," Dhyan-Chohan, Buddha,
> Manu, etc...) through self-sacrifice (meaning every thought,
> desire and act is directed towards the service of others). It
> would always be perfectly in tune with UNIVERSAL CONSCIOUSNESS.
> and ABSOLUTE KARMA. OF THE WHOLE HOST of beings involved in the
> common fields of evolution in some system.
> We, our MONAD, and the conjoined Principles that give us an
> entitative self feeling and self-knowledge, These represent
> analogetically this kind of Central CONSCIOUSNESS, to the
> billions of Monads having lesser experience that cluster around
> US and give us viability on the various planes we (as MONADS) are
> supposed to be responsible for.
>
> Hence, of course, the extreme responsibility we have: to conduct
> our lives as virtuously as possible. This is one of the crucial
> points in evolution for us. Our MONAD is on a balance point.
> Will IT/we employ the forces and powers we have at present
> acquired and the mental vision we have so far developed, to
> assist or to retard UNIVERSAL EVOLUTION,? This could be said to
> start with ourselves and end, finally, with worlds and systems of
> worlds.
>
>
> 2. Planetary or Group Consciousness DTB Seems to
> represent the totality of the consciousness of all the MONADS of
> and in a Planet that is evolving.
>
>
> 3. Self-Consciousness DTB (of the True Self) SPIRITUAL
> IDENTITY AS SHARED WITH ALL OTHER SPIRITUAL BEINGS. ATTUNED TO
> THE INFINITE PURPOSE OF ALL BEINGS.. All virtues would be
> concentrated in this awareness and absolutely nothing that would
> be disruptive of divine and ultimate purpose could be present.
>
>
> 4. Pure Mathematics DTB MANAS, LOGIC, RATIOCINATION
> without any motive of self-interest. Yet, at their base there is
> always a motive of some kind, this has to be discovered each one
> for themselves. It is part of the tests (devised by great
> nature) to discover if the evolution of any MONAD (and the monads
> around it which form its "personality") have, indeed, reached
> the point of ultimate harmlessness, compassion and generosity due
> to itself (as a member of the System) and, to all else that lives
> and deserves our consideration. I think this is a most important
> point.
>
>
> 5. Scientific Wisdom DTB I would say: USE OF THE MIND TO
> REDISCOVER (and prove) THE RULES AND LAWS OF NATURE.
>
> NATURE ALREADY CONTAINS EVERYTHING AND ALL LAWS.
>
> WE ARE NOT AWARE OF THIS BUT LOOK FOR THE PHENOMENA OF STRESS TO
> DEMONSTRATE TO US THE EXISTENCE OF THE BALANCING POWERS THAT
> REACT AGAINST UNUSUAL AND UNNECESSARY CONSTRAINT. Our sense of
> justice, impartiality, universality and above all FREE-WILL (see
> S.D. II 484 just below the middle of the page).
>
>
> 6. Idealism and Devotion DTB AN EXPRESSION OF
> PERFECTION IN EXISTENCE. Pure Spirit. The expression of the
> highest level of the Desire and Feeling nature (S.D. II 176) A
> universalizing of all and every aspect of our being, and
> "character."
>
>
> 7. Behavior(Ceremonial order, ritual and magic) DTB
> This appears to be a CONTRIVED ATTEMPT TO IMITATE NATURE IN PART.
> Usually includes rites, ceremonies, worship and outward
> conformity to social disciplines administered by theologians or
> politicians. These become (or are made into) the norms of a
> society or a culture.
>
> They have no LASTING value (except to those who desire to be
> noticed as 'outwardly' the "leaders" of a culture, society, town,
> region, etc...They are shams and pretense in such cases.
>
> [ The REAL NOBILITY OF CHARACTER is reflected in the constant
> small and generous acts and assistance that such individuals,
> advanced in real evolutionary progress, render to others, with no
> desire for any "return." ] Unless they actually conform to some
> true and real spiritual basis all outward advertising and "show"
> is quite useless and misleading to those who might be lead to
> depend on the honesty and sincerity of such persons. This is
> caused by an imbalance in Kama and a misleading of the Lower
> Manas by such a process.
>
>
> l. (Cause) DTB FROM WHERE? By whom? For what purpose?
> [Lower or Higher Manasic -- selfish or selfless ?]
>
>
> 2. Love DTB Of whom and by whom? Purpose? [Usually
> Lower Manasic] When directed for the benefit of the whole world
> it is impersonal, universal, generous and charitable -- and of
> general and lasting benefit to all beings including the one
> specifically approached.
>
>
> 3. Intellect DTB What aspect of the MIND exercises this or
> makes it available? In Theosophy it is usually (unless modified
> by some qualitative expression) considered to be the Lower Manas
> in action, and in conjunction with, and for the benefit of, Kama
> (Desires and Passions.) These being lower-self-centered are
> usually destructive and disruptive to harmony and to the balanced
> life. But this can be changed when we recognize the petty limits
> of such goals -- then we can widen out and universalize and
> impersonalize it.
>
>
> 4. Love-Intellect DTB Lower Mans in operation with
> a specific object to be attained. [Selfish and Kama-Manasic ] Is
> this, can this be widened to include other beings and eventually
> the whole world and universe ? Changes the motive aspect.
>
>
> 5. Will-Intellect DTB Power to employ the
> correlation of information with a selfish objective. (Lower
> Manasic -- Kama-Manasic - selfish abuse of creative power)
> This also can be universalized and impersonalized for the benefit
> of ALL. Changes the motive aspect.
>
>
> 6. Will-Love DTB Same answer.
>
>
> 7. Will-Love-Intellect(effect) DTB Same answer. Motive when
> chosen makes the difference.
>
>
> =====================================
> Gene
>
> The Buddhic-intuition is at level four and perhaps is the
> Platonic realm of
> the source of ideas like in Pure Mathematics. I'm understanding
> this to
> mean that Love integrates the Intellect so that the many fields
> of
> intellectual activity become the one intellectual activity.
> ======================================
> DTB UNIVERSAL LOVE does this as it impersonalizes and alters
> motive -- it is generous and harmless. MOTIVE IS THE IMPORTANT
> TESTING POINT AT THIS STAGE OF OUR EVOLUTION.
> ====================================
> Gene
> Life in it's many mental, emotional and behavioral aspects
> becomes re-integrated as the
> one, Buddhic-intuitive-contemplative Life on the Buddhic Plane(in
> the Buddhic State of Consciousness).
> =====================================
> DTB The Buddhi-Manasic power of CONSCIOUSNESS is by definition
> universal and impersonal. It is the normal contemplative state
> of any WISE man. (A mind that has ceased to be lower-self
> centered.)
> At present most of us do this with effort and we have trouble
> disentangling the BUDDHIC conditions of IDEAL NATURE from our
> distorted and selfishly centered general ways of life and
> thought -- usually centered on some personal DESIRE . Meditation
> and a consideration of POTENTIAL EFFECTS of our choices are tools
> we can use to effect to self-guidance .towards a higher plane of
> living. As we with greater ease leave the DESIRE-DOMINATED
> average level of living, we may gradually assume and put into
> effect the BUDDHIC way of living for the good of all, as the
> Buddha might say, or as Jesus says in some of the injunctions
> given in THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT (which are so little applied by
> the average "Christian.")
> ==========================================
> Gene
> This is where the integrated Intellect expresses real Love as
> does the Saint or the equivalent from the other ashrams. It is
> this Compassion that is expressed through this glorious light of
> the transpersonal Intellect that gives the Buddha his snazzy
> qualities! This is the Soul expressed through the Mind.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> DTB I would not distinguish the "Soul" from the "Mind." The
> Mental faculty has the 3 levels already written about: 1,
> Buddhis, 2. Pure thought uninfluenced by base motives, and 3.
> Base thought which is selfish, personal, and
> Lower-Self-centered. In all cases the Mind/Soul THINKS, reasons,
> uses logic. The basis for such a power determined by the motive
> either elevates the process or degrades it (and retards the whole
> of evolution).
> ==================================
>
> Gene
>
> This manifests in the body of our feelings through our hearts.
> We are
> fools if we get this love of the heart from the intuition
> confused with the
> needs of the solar plexus.
> =======================================
> DTB Although the Heart qualities are definitely different from
> those of the Desire nature (centered --some say -- in the "solar
> plexus") I do not think it is wise to locate or characterize
> THOUGHT (or desire-feelings) with any particular part of the body
> or its organs. I say this, because I find that Theosophy
> conceives THOUGHT is CONSCIOUSNESS operating on a different
> plane. The ancients held that there were particular organs in
> the human body that were more influenced by the actions on
> different planes and principles. But, as far as I know the
> original teachers never had the opinion that the physical organ
> originated or even greatly influenced the faculty or principle.
> If the physical organ's influence were truly powerful, we could
> not even consider such a subject, or seek to 'escape' from such
> influences.
> The bodily organs and parts, though mentioned in many systems,
> including the Hindu and the Chinese, etc... are only SYMBOLIC.
> As far as I know, the nature of our motives, feelings, thoughts,
> etc... are independent of the physical centers (chakras, etc...?)
> as defined in other systems -- of which the physical shell alone
> remains described to us in ancient literature.
> It is rare to find KEYS for the esoteric meanings concealed in
> those old texts -- which if occult and esoteric cannot be read
> with the "EYE-DOCTRINE" alone. ( The eye-doctrine is limited to
> the translating of words, and the superficial acceptance of the
> meanings as written -- or as presumed to be meant by the modern
> translator).
> The occult and esoteric meanings are carefully concealed within
> the words, phrases and qualities (or events) described. ( The
> S.D. and ISIS give many instances of this for our information.)
> H.P.B. has made some of the ancient Keys available to us so that
> ancient symbology can be unraveled by us as we learn how the
> modern representations and interpretations of those texts have
> been distorted by either interested or ignorant translators.
> This is to be guarded against I think.
> =====================================
> Gene
> Here is where the 5th level, Scientific Wisdom,
> plays it's vital role. The Buddhic Wisdom is so vital to the
> progress of
> humanity that the Scientific Wisdom must ever be acutely aware as
> to what is
> genuine love, genuine compassion and what is merely genuine need,
> genuine
> selfish passion and rationalization. This is why I hesitate.
> This is why I
> am cautious. I have been a fool for all these years. What? I'm
> going to
> suddenly get wise? Or more likely struggle and flip and flop and
> fizzle and
> climb back out of holes, etc. Lord, please bless us with a sense
> of humor.
> ====================
> DTB I fully agree. As we age in any one personality (I am
> convinced of reincarnation) we begin to get a perspective as to
> what is really valuable, because it is able to transcend opinion
> or dogma by age and many experiences. Imperceptibly we are
> constantly evaluating the STATEMENTS we were taught -- with those
> actualities of our experience. This inner recorder, witness,
> observer is again an proof of the immutable and eternal HIGHER
> SELF in each of us, no matter what name we may give to it.
> Yes a sense of humor is absolutely essential -- how else would we
> be able to laugh at our blunders and then avoid them in the
> future? The ambitious authority types seem to lack this sense.
>
> ================================
> Gene:
>
> Ha! I was mediating very early this morning and I was really
> focusing on
> TOTAL UNCONDITIONED CONSCIOUSNESS AND BARE SUBJECTIVITY as
> UNCONSCIOUSNESS
> and thinking that the unconscious could be of two main types:
> that of a
> mountain and that of our solar logos at the logoic plane. Then I
> thought
> that one could go into some wilderness where mankind had never
> been known
> and sit ever so quietly and sense the divine unconsciousness all
> around,
> totally undisturbed by Man. And then! Bam! It was so funny.
> Here is this
> serious scientist sitting ever so quietly observing the divine
> unconsciousness of Nature, out in the middle of nowhere, and what
> is
> actually happening is the entire forest is becoming aware that
> there is
> about one hundred and fifty pounds of food just sitting there,
> unaware and
> undefended. It was so funny! You had to be there! It would be
> like this
> huge animate Brownie(with pecans!) entering some kindergarden
> class of
> hungry children merely to sit quietly and observe their natural
> behavior!
> Ha! Talk about observer effect! I'm weird. I had the best
> laugh I've had
> for years. To see that big yummy brownie sitting there taking
> notes and all
> those children getting closer and closer.
> ======================================
> DTB I have difficulty equating some of the expressions of modern
> psychology with their Theosophical equivalents. They do not
> always seem to mean the same thing.
>
>
> Look at the words UNCONSCIOUS and UNCONSCIOUSNESS. Is the
> implication there that below human CONSCIOUSNESS there is NO
> CONSCIOUSNESS ? I would tend to disagree, as to my mind the
> purposiveness of all beings (atoms, sub-atoms, cells, molecules,
> and various other structures in just the small limits of the
> physical plane and it is a type of 'matter-by-obstruction' (the
> WHIRLING FAN example) I would say we need a wider spectrum of
> definition. Example: What are the sub-atomic particles? Forces
> and Fields with a purpose. They obey fundamental laws IN THEIR
> ENVIRONMENT SET BY NATURE. Nature being ever-present, those LAWS
> are being looked into by us (same of the mega-side - in
> astronomy. What are 50 billion or 5,000 billion light-years of
> distance to us, who are pigmy-intelligences and very small minds
> indeed on our insignificant EARTH ?
>
> Yet these same MINDS of ours are able to embrace the phenomena
> and speculate on possibles and potentials in other places where
> we have no present instrumentation to penetrate -- we see only
> the movement of surfaces and the WHY is still unclear.
>
> We do however have the wisdom to say that LAW must be operating
> everywhere and we can trust it because of it persistence and
> regularity of repetition..
>
> Well this has been most interesting. Thank you. Wonder if what
> I write is helpful.
> Best wishes for 2001, et seq -- and many thanks for yours which I
> reciprocate.
> Dallas
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Love,
> Gene
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <dalval14@earthlink.net>
> To: "AA-SD-BN" <sd@blavatsky.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 5:32 PM
> Subject: Theos-World INTUITION What is it?
>
>
> > December 19, 2000
> >
> > I noted that INTUITION was being looked into.
> >
> > I recall one wise man saying years ago, when asked: "By all
> > means do trust your intuition, but. Make sure that it is not
> the
> > intuition of a fool." Many a time I have wondered about that.
> > It has made me very cautious, about my own ideas and about
> > other's.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>