Theos-Talk Archives (November 2000 Message tt00192)

Gene,

Substance is a state of energy, a precipitation of energy, it is also 
phenomena, and the perception of substance is relative to ones state 
of Mind. Understanding, or knowledge, in the ordinary sense is all 
relative and is a feature of space and time. I am not sure that "Bare 
Subjectivity" can be or should be associated with "Unconditioned 
Consciousness" because the awareness of "Unconditioned Consciousness" 
is in the realm of absolute truth and is therefore not bound by space 
or time, time being all at once, and space is totally without 
obstruction. 

We all know there can not be the subjective without the objective 
because these are two sides of the same coin. "Unconditioned 
Consciousness" is a non-ordinary awareness that is non-dual in its 
cognitive aspects. This special awareness is ever present existing 
within ordinary awareness not excluding it. The term, "Bare 
Subjectivity" is one that is baffling to me and perhaps I do not 
understand your use of the term. Would you care to explain what you 
understand it to mean?

Sherab


--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Eugene Carpenter" <Ecarpent@c...> 
wrote:
> If Total Unconditioned Consciousness and Bare Subjectivity
> 
> 
> is all there is,
> 
> then what is substance?
> 
> 
> Could it be that substance is the under-standing of the above?
> 
> 
> Wouldn't under-standing the above take time and space?
> 
> 
> Are we not Total Consciousness and Bare Subjectivity
> 
> gradually understanding who we are?
> 
> 
> Gene
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sherab Dorje" <sherab@w...>
> To: <theos-talk@egroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 9:46 PM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: Point of view- THIS is a Classic example
> 
> 
> > There is a one to one correspondence with your quote below,
> > > that "The Universe is Embodied Consciousness" -- 
> > > on every possible plane.
> > and the quote that I posted earlier in this discussion that is 
> > attributed to Lord Maitreya,
> > "Nothing exists apart from the Mind,
> > Awareness eventually comes to realize this."
> > 
> > One could also say in equal truth, Consciousness is the Universe 
or 
> > that the Universe is Conscious. Either way, there is no getting 
> > around the truth that all is in Mind. Awareness is That, embodied 
or 
> > not. It is the non-recognition of that intrinsic awareness that 
> > brings about the embodiment.
> > 
> > As to whether this is helpful to readers or not would be hard to 
> > determine. If there is some juice in a thread then will get legs 
and 
> > have some participation. If one is drawn to this forum then they 
are 
> > drawn to the Mysteries, that much we have in common. To invoke 
the 
> > Mysteries is to evoke the metaphysical dyanmic between the 
student 
> > and the teacher, the disciple and the guru, the chela and the 
chohan, 
> > the novice and the lama, in other words to teach and to learn.
> > 
> > Thank you for your comments. There are many discussions taking 
place 
> > here but not all that I can participate in.
> > 
> > Sherab
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@egroups.com, Compiler <compiler@w...> wrote:
> > > Sherab,
> > > 
> > > This may or may not be helpful to some readers:
> > > 
> > > As I read all of the stimulating scientific discussions here, 
and 
> > not
> > > personally having a scientific or scholarly bent, just being a 
> > student who
> > > is a theosophic generalist, so to say, in trying to understand 
it 
> > all, I
> > > keep clearly in the front of my mind at all times the 
fundamental
> > > Theosophic statement, assuming that it is true, until proven 
> > otherwise,
> > > that "The Universe is Embodied Consciousness" -- on every 
possible 
> > plane.
> > > 
> > > Compiler
> > > -------
> > > 
> > > Sherab Dorje wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Discussion indeed! Thank you for your stimulating questions 
and
> > > > thoughts.
> > > >
> > > > First, some thoughts about Sham's questions after sleeping on 
> > them.
> > > > Good questions require good answers and having just read LMH's
> > > > posting on this subject that needs sometime to digest.
> > > >
> > > > Given that there is no way to separate the Mind from the 
> > awareness of
> > > > phenomena what can we understand about these differing points 
of
> > > > view. Western science regards consciousness as a phenomena 
giving 
> > it
> > > > substantial form, where as, spiritually regarded, mind 
appears as 
> > an
> > > > infinitely empty container in which all phenomena manifest 
and has
> > > > certain inherent qualities.
> > > >
> > > > There appears to be no problem with regarding inter-molecular 
> > space
> > > > as a kind of primordial substance. What appears to awareness, 
be 
> > that
> > > > iron or emptyness is really a matter of the state of 
awareness, or
> > > > state of mind. Substance appears as a state of consciousness. 
In 
> > that
> > > > as consciousness unfolds or the state of mind changes, as in 
> > death,
> > > > then what follows is a change in the appearance of phenomena 
or
> > > > substance. As human beings, we are subjects within certain 
realms
> > > > where substances conform to their karmic causes. I believe 
that 
> > this
> > > > is what HPB refers to as the limits beyond which we can go 
not. If
> > > > there is any way to characterize HPB's work, it is that she is
> > > > showing us the naked reality of our consciousness and asking 
us to
> > > > examine That.
> > > >
> > > > This does not preclude or exclude the consciousness of beings 
that
> > > > exist at other energetic frequencies or interpenetrating 
planes of
> > > > being and that are subject to their corresponding realms that 
are
> > > > just as substantial as iron is in our realm though those 
> > substances
> > > > may appear to us as space in our realm. So nothing exists 
apart 
> > from
> > > > the mind, regardless of whatever state the mind is in.
> > > >
> > > > Another approach we may take to analyze this is to regard 
> > phenomena
> > > > as effect produced by a cause. Force, must be the sensible
> > > > appearance of this process, the movement of energetic flux, of
> > > > manifestation or pralaya due to cause. Phenomena appears due 
to 
> > cause
> > > > and when the cause is removed the phenomena disappears 
without a
> > > > trace. This also applies to the mind and its state. Different 
> > states
> > > > of Mind come about because of causes so it follows that in 
other
> > > > states of Mind different phenomena and substance will arise in
> > > > awareness.
> > > >
> > > > It is not my intent to flippantly reduce the wealth of 
knowledge
> > > > revealed by science to mere mental clutter, that would be
> > > > disrespectful nor is it my intent to reduce spiritual views 
of 
> > Mind
> > > > to an unregardable eternalist view. Science is an ego, an "I" 
that
> > > > wants to always box things in or find smaller and smaller
> > > > compartments of usefully quantifiable corresponding 
information. 
> > It
> > > > does this by generating them with concepts, mental 
constructs. 
> > When
> > > > one box of concept is complete another larger box is under
> > > > development somewhere else. The question, is this, are we just
> > > > creating more causes for a larger universe or universes? And 
if 
> > so,
> > > > then we must examine the motivation for producing these 
causes. 
> > That
> > > > line of questioning ultimately leads back to the purpose of 
being
> > > > human. This, I regard, as the highest Theosophical duty.
> > > >
> > > > It is a real pleasure to take part in such a stimulating
> > > > converstation. More on this thread later.
> > > >
> > > > Sherab
> > > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >