Theos-Talk Archives (November 2000 Message tt00128)

What I understand is that the Masters as commonly understood 
by Theosophists is a concept that was heavily influenced by the 
spirit guides then used in the spiritualist movement... here I refer 
to the mysterious letters that appear from the Mahatmas... 

The tradition of the Mahasiddhis in India and Tibet is much older 
than that late grafting of our historical Theosophical movement. 
The "Mahatma" idea is really i believe a synthesis between the 
Rosicrucian concept of the invisible brotherhood and the 
european ideas of what a Mahatma was then current in the early 
twentieth century... These ideas are of historical interest only and 
should be respected as such. I do feel strongly that to hold to the 
existence of these shadowy beings is to bring a kind of disrepute 
on us and the work of theosophy. 

Sincerely,

Arthur Gregory




--- In theos-talk@egroups.com, "Blavatsky Archives" <info@b...> 
wrote:
> Subject: Art Gregory, Paul Johnson and Richard Hodgson on 
Blavatsky's Masters
> 
> I find it quite interesting to compare and contrast the 
interpretations
> that Art Gregory, Paul Johnson and Richard Hodgson have 
made about Madame
> Blavatsky's Masters. Art Gregory apparantly believes that 
HPB's Mahatmas
> were "spirit guides" and NOT physical, living persons. In 
contrast it would
> appear that Paul Johnson explains many of the appearances 
of the Masters
> as simply the appearance of a physical living person. In a few 
cases Johnson
> has tried to associate these appearances with fairly well 
known historical
> persons. Richard Hodgson usually assumed that these 
appearances were simply
> one or more flesh and blood confederates pretending to be a 
Mahatma at Madame
> Blavatsky's instigation.
> 
> For example, let's take the case of Olcott meeting Ooton Liatto 
and another
> adept in New York. Paul Johnson has written that in his 
opinion: "there
> is little doubt that two real adepts visited Olcott in New York." 
Unless
> I am making a wrong assumption I believe Johnson believes 
two living flesh
> and blood adepts visited Olcott. On the other hand Art Gregory 
apparently
> would insist that these two adepts were not physical living men 
but "spirit
> guides." Richard Hodgson would probably have believed that 
two persons
> hired by Madame Blavatsky impersonated "adepts" in order to 
fool and dupe
> Olcott. See Case A at the end of my comments below. 
> 
> Another example. Take Olcott's account of seeing Master 
Morya at Bombay
> in the company of six other witnesses. See Case D below. I 
assume Art
> Gregory would believe that Master Morya here was "a spirit 
guide". Am I
> wrong? Why couldn't it be the "astral body" of a living person? 
What would
> be Paul Johnson's interpretation? He might suggest that this 
Master was
> a living flesh and blood person. Richard Hodgson believed 
that it was 
> a living person --- Alexis Coulomb dressed up to impersonate 
an appearance
> of the Master. 
> 
> Here is yet another example. Olcott related to the SPR 
Committee:
> 
> "One day at Bombay I was at work in my office when a Hindu 
servant came
> and told me that a gentleman wanted to see me in Madame 
Blavatsky's bungalow
> --- a separate house within the same enclosure as the main 
building. This
> was one day in 1879. I went and found alone there my 
Teacher[Master Morya].
> Madame Blavatsky was then engaged in animated 
conversation with other persons
> in the other bungalow. The interview between the Teacher and 
myself lasted
> perhaps 10 minutes, and it related to matters of a private 
nature with respect
> to myself and certain current events in the history of the Society. 
. .
> . He put his hand upon my head, and his hand was perfectly 
substantial;
> and he had altogether the appearance of an ordinary living 
person. When
> he walked about the floor there was noise of his footsteps. . . . 
He was
> then stopping at a bungalow, not far from Bombay, belonging 
to a person
> connected with this brotherhood of the Mahatmas, and used by 
Mahatmas who
> may be passing through Bombay on business connected with 
their order. He
> came to our place on horseback. . . . I have seen him at other 
times [also
> in the flesh]. . . . [His appearance on all those occasions has 
been] as
> unmistakable as the appearance of either of you gentlemen [of 
the SPR sitting
> here and asking me questions]. . . ." Another account of this 
same encounter
> is given below in Case F.
> 
> How does Art Gregory explain this case? I assume he would 
try to somehow
> explain it by his "spirit guide" theory. But does a "spirit guide" 
leave
> by riding off on a horse? Was the horse also an "apparition"? I 
have no
> idea how Paul Johnson would explain this case. I assume he 
might accept
> that it was a "physical" person but I doubt that he would accept 
Olcott's
> testimony that this person on horseback was actually the 
Master Morya. 
> Richard Hodgson would have probably believed that it was 
some unnamed confederate
> that was impersonating the "Master Morya" to dupe poor Olcott. 
But who was
> this person on horseback?
> 
> Here we see three persons coming up with totally different 
assessments of
> the Colonel Olcott's testimony and evidence. These three 
different interpretations
> cannot all be correct and true. How does one separate the 
wheat from the
> chaff in all these conflicting opinions?
> 
> Daniel
> 
> I append below 8 cases marked A through H for ease of 
reference and comparison
> for those who actually want to cross check and compare 
material in order
> to see the validity of Gregory, Johnson's and Hodgson's 
"interpretations."
> 
> _________________________________________________ 
> 
> CASE A: OLCOTT'S ACCOUNT OF MEETING OOTON LIATTO 
> IN NEW YORK CITY 
> 
> "...I was reading in my room yesterday (Sunday) when there 
> came a tap at the door---I said 'come in' and there entered the 
> [younger] Bro[ther] with another dark skinned gentleman of 
> about fifty....We took cigars and chatted for a while....[Then 
> Olcott relates that a rain shower started in the room. Olcott 
> continues the account:] They sat there and quietly smoked their 
> cigars, while mine became too wet to burn....finally the younger 
> of the two (who gave me his name as Ooton Liatto) said I 
> needn't worry nothing would be damaged....I asked Liatto 
> if he knew Madam B[lavatsky]....the elder Bro[ther]...[said] that 
> with her permission they would call upon her. I ran 
> downstairs---rushed into Madams parlour---and---there sat 
these same 
> two identical men smoking with her and chatting....I said 
> nothing but rushed up stairs again tore open my door and---the 
men 
> were not there---I ran down again, they had disappeared--- 
> I . . . looked out the window---and saw them turning the 
> corner...." (Olcott's account is given in full in Theosophical 
> History, Jan., 1994.) 
> 
> _________________________________________________ 
> 
> CASE B: OLCOTT'S ACCOUNT OF MEETING MORYA IN 
CEYLON 
> 
> "...on the night of that day [Sept. 27th, 1881] I was awakened 
from 
> sleep by my Chohan (or Guru, the Brother [Morya] 
> whose immediate pupil I am)....He made me rise, sit at my 
> table and write from his dictation for an hour or more. There 
> was an expression of anxiety mingled with sternness on his 
> noble face, as there always is when the matter concerns 
H.P.B., to 
> whom for many years he has been at once a father and a 
> devoted guardian. . . ." (Quoted in Hints On Esoteric 
Theosophy, 
> No. 1, 1882, pp. 82-83. 
> 
> 
__________________________________________________
___ 
> 
> CASE C: OLCOTT'S ACCOUNT OF MEETING MORYA AT 
BOMBAY 
> 
> In his diary for Jan. 29, 1882, Colonel Olcott pens this brief 
entry: 
> 
> "M[orya] showed himself very clearly to me & HPB in her 
garden.... 
> she joining him they talked together...." 
> 
> 
__________________________________________________
___ 
> 
> CASE D: OLCOTT'S ACCOUNT OF SEEING MORYA AT 
BOMBAY WITH SIX OTHER WITNESSES
> 
> 
> "We were sitting together in the moonlight about 9 o'clock upon 
> the balcony which projects from the front of the bungalow. 
> Mr. Scott was sitting facing the house, so as to look through 
> the intervening verandah and the library, and into the room 
> at the further side. This latter apartment was brilliantly 
> lighted. The library was in partial darkness, thus rendering 
> objects in the farther room more distinct. Mr. Scott suddenly 
> saw the figure of a man step into the space, opposite the 
> door of the library; he was clad in the white dress of a 
> Rajput, and wore a white turban. Mr. Scott at once recognized 
> him from his resemblance to a portrait [of Morya] in Col. 
> Olcott's possession. Our attention was then drawn to him, 
> and we all saw him most distinctly. He walked towards a 
> table, and afterwards turning his face towards us, walked 
> back out of our sight...when we reached the room 
> he was gone....Upon the table, at the spot where he had 
> been standing, lay a letter addressed to one of our number. 
The 
> handwriting was identical with that of sundry notes and letters 
> previously received from him...." The statement is signed by: 
> "Ross Scott, Minnie J.B. Scott, H.S. Olcott, H.P. Blavatsky, 
> M. Moorad Ali Beg, Damodar K. Mavalankar, and Bhavani 
> Shankar Ganesh Mullapoorkar." (Quoted from Hints On 
Esoteric 
> Theosophy, No. 1, 1882, pp. 75-76.) 
> 
> From Olcott's diary for Jan. 5, 1882, 
> 
> "Evening. Moonlight. On balcony, HPB, Self, Scott & 
> wife, Damodar....[etc]...M[orya] appeared in my office. 
> First seen by Scott, then me....Scott clearly saw M's 
> face....M left note for me on table in office by which he stood...." 
> 
> 
__________________________________________________
___ 
> 
> CASE E: MORYA COMES TO BOMBAY ON AUGUST 4, 1880 
> 
> On August 4, 1880, Olcott writes that: 
> 
> ". . . a Mahatma visited H.P.B., and I was called in to see him 
before he
> 
> left. He dictated a long and important letter to an influential 
friend
> of 
> ours at Paris, and gave me important hints about the 
management of current
> 
> Society affairs. I left him [the Mahatma] sitting in H.P.B.'s 
room...."
> 
> [Old Diary Leaves, Volume II, 1972 printing, p. 208]" 
> 
> And Olcott's actual handwritten diary for August 4, 1880 reads: 
> 
> "M [orya] here this evening & wrote to Fauvety of Paris. He says 
5000 
> English troops killed in Afghanistan in the recent battle. . . ." 
> 
> 
__________________________________________________
_______ 
> 
> CASE F: MORYA COMES ON HORSEBACK TO BOMBAY 
> IN JULY, 1879 
> 
> "This same Brother once visited me in the flesh at Bombay, 
> coming in full day light, and on horseback. He had me called 
> by a servant into the front room of H.P.B.'s bungalow 
> (she being at the time in the other bungalow talking with those 
> who were there). He [Morya] came to scold me roundly 
> for something I had done in T.S. matters, and as H.P.B. was 
> also to blame, he telegraphed to her to come, that is to say, 
> he turned his face and extended his finger in the direction of 
> the place she was in. She came over at once with a rush, 
> and seeing him dropped to her knees and paid him reverence. 
> My voice and his had been heard by those in the other 
> bungalow, but only H.P.B. and I, and the servant saw him." 
> (Extract from a letter written by Colonel Olcott to A.O. Hume 
> on Sept. 30, 1881. Quoted in Hints On Esoteric Theosophy, 
> No. 1, 1882, p. 80.) 
> 
> "[I] had visit in body of the Sahib [Morya]!! [He] sent Babula 
> to my room to call me to H.P.B.'s bungalow, and there we had 
> a most important private interview...." (Extract from Olcott's 
> handwritten diary for Tuesday, July 15, 1879.) 
> 
> _________________________________________________ 
> 
> CASE G: OLCOTT'S ACCOUNT OF MEETING A MASTER AT 
> THE GOLDEN TEMPLE IN AMRITSAR ON OCTOBER 26, 1880: 
> 
> "'...at a shrine where the swords, sharp steel discs, coats of 
mail, and
> 
> other warlike weapons of the Sikh warrior priests are exposed 
to 
> view in charge of the akalis, I was greeted, to my surprise and 
joy, with
> 
> a loving smile by one of the Masters, who for the moment was 
> figuring among the guardians, and who gave each of us a 
fresh rose, 
> with a blessing in his eyes...." (Old Diary Leaves, Volume III, 
pp. 254-255,
> 
> 1974 printing.) 
> 
> In Olcott's own handwritten diary, the entry for October 26, 1880 
> reads: 
> 
> "...In the afternoon we went to the Golden Temple again & 
found 
> it as lovely as before. Saw some hundreds of fakirs & 
gossains 
> more or less ill-favored. A Brother there saluted H.P.B. and me 
> & gave us each a rose." 
> 
> ___________________________________________ 
> 
> CASE H: OLCOTT'S ACCOUNT OF MEETING MASTER 
> KOOT HOOMI IN NOVEMBER, 1883 ON THE OUTSKIRTS 
> OF LAHORE, INDIA. 
> 
> "I was sleeping in my tent, the night of the 19th, when I rushed 
> back towards external consciousness on feeling a hand laid 
> on me.. . . I clutched the stranger by the upper arms, and 
> asked him in Hindustani who he was and what he wanted. 
> It was all done in an instant, and I held the man tight, as would 
> one who might be attacked the next moment and have to 
defend 
> his life. But the next moment a kind, sweet voice said: 'Do you 
> not know me? Do you not remember me?' It was the voice of 
the 
> Master K.H. . . .I relaxed my hold on his arms, joined my palms 
> in reverential salutation, and wanted to jump out of bed to 
show 
> him respect. But his hand and voice stayed me, and after a few 
> sentences had been exchanged, he took my left hand in his, 
> gathered the fingers of his right into the palm, and stood quiet 
> beside my cot, from which I could see his divinely benignant 
> face by the light of the lamp that burned on a packing-case at 
his 
> back. Presently I felt some soft substance forming in my hand, 
> and the next minute the Master laid his kind hand on my 
> forehead, uttered a blessing, and left my half of the large tent to 
> visit Mr. W.T. Brown, who slept in the other half behind a 
> canvas screen that divided the tent into two rooms. When 
> I had time to pay attention to myself, I found myself holding 
> in my left hand a folded paper enwrapped in a silken cloth. To 
> go to the lamp, open and read it, was naturally my first 
impulse. 
> I found it to be a letter of private counsel. . . On hearing an 
> exclamation from=85[Brown's] side of the screen, I went in 
there 
> and he showed me a silk-wrapped letter of like appearance to 
> mine though of different contents, which he said had been 
> given him much as mine had been to me, and which we read 
> together. . . .The next evening. . .we two and Damodar sat in 
> my tent, at 10 o'clock, waiting for an expected visit from 
> Master K.H. . . .We sat on chairs at the back of the tent 
> so as not to be observed from the camp: the moon was 
> in its last quarter and had not risen. After some waiting 
> we heard and saw a tall Hindu approaching from the side 
> of the open plain. He came to within a few yards of us and 
> beckoned Damodar to come to him, which he did. He told 
> him that the Master would appear within a few minutes, 
> and that he had some business with Damodar. It was a 
> pupil of Master K.H. Presently we saw the latter coming from 
> the same direction, pass his pupil. . .and stop in 
> front of our group, now standing and saluting in the 
> Indian fashion, some yards away. Brown and I kept our 
> places, and Damodar went and conversed for a few 
> minutes with the Teacher, after which he returned to us and 
> the king-like visitor walked away. I heard his footsteps on 
> the ground. . . .Before retiring, when I was writing my 
> Diary, the pupil lifted the portiere, beckoned to me, 
> and pointed to the figure of his Master [K.H.], waiting 
> for me out on the plain in the starlight. I went to him, 
> we walked off to a safe place at some distance 
> where intruders need not be expected, and then for 
> about a half-hour he told me what I had to know. . . 
> There were no miracles done at the interview. . .just 
> two men talking together, a meeting, and a parting 
> when the talk was over. . . ." (Old Diary Leaves, Volume III, 
> pp. 37-39, 43-45, 1972 reprinting.) 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> Daniel H. Caldwell
> info@b...
> BLAVATSKY ARCHIVES
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