Theos-Talk Archives (May 2000 Message tt00108)

May 12 2000

Dennis:

PLEASE LET ME INSERT SOME NOTES BELOW.

Devachan period in our years is said by HPB to be 10 to 15
centuries  (Key 132, 145, 170,  191-192)

Chelas are helped out of Devachan early, as the time of their
education is accelerated.  See:
HPB -  IS THE DESIRE TO LIVE SELFISH?  THEOSOPHIST,  July 1884.
See also
HPB - DIALOGUE ON THE MYSTERIES OF THE AFTER LIFE,  LUCIFER
January 1889.

HPB's wandering in Astral Plane.  NOTE:  SHE WAS CONSCIOUS of
that event.  We are NOT conscious when the body is asleep -- at
last the Personal and Physical brain consciousness is not awake
nor does it remember the events of interaction between the Ego
and the Atma as described in
HPB's TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE  [ BCW  Vol. 10, pp.
252 - 263 -- ULT Edition pp. 66 - 76 ]


D T B


===================================

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@theosophy.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Kier
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 12:00 PM
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: Re: Theos-World MONADIC EVOLUTION Part 4



From: W. Dallas TenBroeck <dalval@nwc.net>
> MONADIC EVOLUTION   Part  4
>
DK+++++++++++++

Thanks Dallas for another part of the story. It is something to
save and
study.

I have a few thoughts, on scattered points here and there that
might be of
interest.
+++++++++++++++++++

> Theosophy is a report on the HISTORY of research conducted by
the
> Wise men, the Sages and Adepts of this Earth for many, many
> thousands of years.  [SD I 272-3]

DTB  	Theosophy as History will also be found referred to in SD
on pp.
SD I - 267 ( 4 lines from top);  I 52 108 269 272-3 303 306-7 406
472 646-7 676;
SD II 82 217 311 327 334 349 415 437-8 442 711 795
------------------------------------


DK] That brings up some interesting points.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

> 3.  That between adjacent incarnations, after the grosser
selfish
> and personal elements are first purged away, (Kama-Loka, OCEAN
p.
> 99 et seq.,  KEY, p. 98-9, 143-4, 173, 189-2) comes a period of
> comparative rest and refreshment, called Devachan (OCEAN, p.
109
> et seq,  KEY, p. 98 -0 108)  -- the soul being therein prepared
> for its next advent into material life.
>
++++++++++++++
DK]
And is that period defined in terms of your Earth Years, months,
hours?

DTB	See above -- yes earth years   10 to 15 centuries (our waking
time)


DK	I can't say where, but my information is that the personality
after death
lasts as a personality for a period of about 40 of our Earth
Years. They are
wandering around, generally in the Astral Plane,

DTB This probably refers to KAMA-LOKA where the lower aspects of
the personality coalesce with the astral body and gradually
disintegrate -- see KEY 128 143-4 173 176 180 190 192

The Real Man (the Higher Manas) detaches itself shortly after
physical death from the Kama-rupa and goes into Devachan where it
foes its meditation for a period that averages 10 to 15
centuries.  (In the case of children or those who die young, and
where thee has not been much gathered in terms of experience for
Devachanic meditation, the period between rebirths may be
shorter -- a few years or centuries



DK	and sometimes in the Mental
or Spiritual plane, depending on their evolution before they
died. They then
have time to, along with the permanent higher self, evaluate
their most
recent life, and whether they met their goals, and what should
come next.

And they have time to interact with the still incarnate other
selves. They
can activate mediums, for instance for a few years until they
waste away
into unconsciousness. So that the Spiritualists and HPB's
thoughts on
Spiritualism can both be true. The Spiritualists for the first
immediate
years after death, and HPB's thoughts for the long term.

DTB	May I suggest another close reading of the KEY TO THEOSOPHY
where HPB makes clear all these details ?  What you write is very
indefinite.  Your memory of what you have read needs (in my
esteem) to be sharpened by familiarity with the Teachings.  As
those originate with the Masters (through HPB and what they wrote
to Sinnett) they can only be accessed there.  Anything else is
hearsay -- including what I write.  Hence I show references to
which students can go for greater precision.

Theosophy is not indefinite nor a vague statement of some ideas
that come to us from remote persons whom we consider to be
inaccessible.   It is a living and a practical philosophy, which
if used in daily life will lead to the greatest of wisdoms
available.  Its philosophy is most clear and is aimed at bridging
the gaps that Modern Science and research find inexplicable so
far.  But like all such things, if one is going to use it has to
be grasped and studied.
---------------------------------------------

DK	HPB claimed that when she was living at her Master's house,
they had her out
of her body for 11 weeks, (as I recall the time period), and she
was
wandering around wondering why no one would take notice of her,
or talk with
her. I don't recall any mention of what THEY were doing with her
body while
she was not residing in it.

DTB	Her body was taken care of as is usual in such cases where
the Chela under instruction is asked to solve the problem and
devise a return to the body as a matter of practical exercise of
the consciousness and power that he/she has learned.
------------------------------------------

DK	But she, the spirit - or personality, or whatever you call it
was absent from it.

DTB	From the body, certainly.  But not UNCONSCIOUS.  If she
desired a vehicle, and to return to her body, she had to find the
way out of the Astral Plane.
----------------------------------------


DK	her systems, when they describe that condition, claim that if
the resident
is expelled permanently, either the body will die, or another
personality
can enter and reside in the body, and take it as their own - to
all outward
appearances.

DTB	If you refer to SD I  157-8 and the continuation in SD I
176 - 179, 181-182, 184, 233, 243-5,
II 79-80. 94-5, 109-110, 167, 272-275, you will begin to get the
picture more accurately.


DK	 the Old Diary Leaves, Olcott describes an Old Gentleman who
comes to
visit when they are writing ISIS -I think-. He was a very highly
developed
soul, and was concentrating on spiritual matters, and hadn't
realized that
he had died, and was a friendly fellow. He helped them with the
writing, and
was going on just as he had before he had died. -And, of course,
Olcott
couldn't have been aware of him unless he had animated the HPB
body, just as
the Masters did when they got to know WQJ, as he describes
getting to know
them in New York.

DTB	That was how Olcott remembered and described it.  It is not
what HPB had to say on the matter.  The Adept was a NIRMANAKAYA.


DK	 seems to me, that this statement by either HPB or Olcott
about this
spirit who visited, and helped them with their work, sort of
tells us that
the statements that HPB and the Masters made reguarding
Spiritualism needs
to be qualified in some manner, for a Time Period. I haven't seen
much about
the specific time period that we can expect the newly discarnate
individual
to retain enough consciousness to continue on as a spirit.

DTB	That is not what Theosophy teaches.


DK	The other Spiritualist mediums that HPB knew had definite
individuals as
their controlls, and these seem to have lasted as definite
personalities for
the lives of their mediums. And this pattern seems to have lasted
in modern
times, such as the control "Seth", who wrote books and made tapes
and videos
over a period of time till the medium died.

DTB	Again this is vague and not what Theosophy teaches.

DK	The Tibetan word is Tulku, and the Sanskrit word that HPB used
most often
was Avesa, or Avesta.

Evidently, the same natural ability of the body is used in both
instances,
the Mediumship, and the Avesa or Tulku process in which the body
is taken
permanently. In the case of the Russian Princess, Anastasia, and
perhaps
Dorothy Eddy (Om Seti), the body was evidently abandoned by the
original
owner, and would have died if the spirit of another had not taken
up
residence there.

DTB	Still vague and uncertain.


DK	In her later years, HPB commented that when things got tough,
she might just
let the bayonet wound to heart, that she suffered while fighting
for
Garabaldi, when her Master siezed the opportunity and re-animated
her for
the work that his pupil Koot Humi wished to start, that of
founding the TS,
open up again, and she could leave for good.

DTB	Where can we find a corroborating reference to this, please ?
I would really like to know as nowhere that I know has such a
thing been stated by HPB.  In what way is the Master KH said to
be the "pupil" of Master M ?  Where is this stated ?  Any
reference ?


DK	And Damodar came to the conclusion while he was living at
ADYAR in the
headquarters, that HPB was a dead body reanimated by the Master
Morya, and
the other Masters.

DTB	Again.  Do you have an actual reference that corroborates
this ?


DK	He later became a Master, and died just a year before Olcott
did in 1906.

DTB	Reference please ?  Where and Who said that ?


Dear Dennis:

As far as I am concerned this needs a lot of referencing to help
me to check out the novel statements that I read in what you
write.  I hope you will not mind finding them for me.  I would be
obliged.

Best wishes,

Dallas

---------------------------

Dennis



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