Theos-Talk Archives (October 1999 Message tt00044)

Clint,

I view it differently than you, but it may be semantic.
You said:
"We are direct results of our social and physical
environment (including genetics), self evident truth
is as subjective as our native tongue. "

I would also add that there is a spiritual dimension or side in our
daily life.
It is  in the dreamless state of consciousness that we are confronted
with Absolute.
Before that we are confronted with Archetypal images. We do not need
social interaction for that, only elevation to a state of spiritual
awareness.  From there the Pilgrimage or Quest is born. The rest, how we
interpret it, depends on our intellectual capabilities to verbalize it.
Island or no island the scenario is the same. Refer to Plato's myth of
the Cave. We are in that island or cave. And you are right few will get
it.

But I like what you wrote later:

"No, self evident truths are a paradox.  ...

I think there is a great danger to reduce thing to genetical or social
levels. There is more to life that done, at least that is my experience.
Meditation brings that clearer.  We all have experience being one,
fused, with the ocean, lake, forest, mountain, etc. In meditation we
have flashes of nothingness.  This is a good beginning to explore the
spiritual connection of all, based on Karma, and reincarnation, and of
course as you sad "our social and physical  environment (including
genetics)"
The main limitation for meditadors without a teacher, is that she or he
may be lost in expectations, which is always dual in nature. So even if
you have a glimpse of the Nothingness, the un-prepared mind will labeled
as "nothing happened," "I saw nothing."
Of course in that dreamless state there is nothing, but must be not
perceived with the mind but with the Budhi.

That the way I understand it, and explained why so many people
experience it but few gets it. Guidance is important. I totally disagree
with people who think that there is no need for gurus, teachers, etc.

Now my question is Karma and reincarnation a self-evident Truth?



Any ideas?


Martin Leiderman



clint mccray wrote:

> Excellent points, but how many of us would get that
> far? Even with all the literature, very few even
> realize they are sentient in the real world, maybe 1
> in a million would figure it out on their own.
>
> Then, thinking about all the tribal ritual and belief
> focused of food, the hunt, natural elements, I would
> think self evident truths would tend toward animism in
> the island scenario.
>
> No, self evident truths are a paradox.  Evident truths
> maybe, but with no real building blocks, very few (if
> any) could put it together.  Hell very few, if any put
> it together now.
>
> --- Martin Leiderman <martinle@lainet.com> wrote:
> > Hi Randy,
> > I like the subject since I entertained that sometime
> > ago, and this is what came
> > out of it.
> >
> > 1- I will be aware that I have consciousness. (I
> > know there are many ways  to
> > say it clearer)
> > 2- Duality is perceived, as me and 'else'.
> > 3- If I don't have any mystical experiences of
> > totality, oneness, of Yoga, I
> > will stay in this duality mode of consciousness
> > forever, and explanations about
> > Cosmos and consciousness will be of a materialistic,
> > animistic, magical,
> > nature, but I will not approach the Monistic
> > philosophical view.
> >
> > 4- If I have any true mystical experiences, I will
> > experience Oneness.
> >
> > 5- And from that Oneness, Wholeness, or Beness, I
> > probably will come up with
> > visions and explanations  about the origin of the
> > Cosmos and of the
> > Consciousness, essentially similar to any ancient
> > religion, philosophy, etc.
> >
> >
> > Hope to spark a dialogue.
> >
> > Martin Leiderman
> >
> > WLR7D@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > I would like to discuss with interested parties
> > self-evident truths.  If you
> > > were alone on an isolated island, what could  you
> > come up with in terms of
> > > your origin, purpose and destiny.  What I'm
> > looking for is to assemble
> > > self-evident truths that could be apparent to any
> > thinking person and not
> > > parroted constructs from"holy books" or
> > sages...unless these are revealing
> > > such self-evident truths.
> > > My feeling is that this is the starting point for
> > any grounded cosmogony or
> > > life philosophy.  Let me know if you are
> > interested.  I can send you the
> > > ideas I have thus far assembled.
> > > Thanks, Randy
> > >
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>
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