Theos-Talk Archives (September 1999 Message tt00124)

Sept 9th 1999

Dear Gerry::

Why should I change what I have to day now ?

Where and when did the Buddha call "Immortality" as "spiritual heresy
/"  The word heresy is one that has received a derogatory connotation.
If one refers to the dictionary it means a "questioner."  It is one
that opposes theological doctrine.  But are theological doctrines, or
their modern expressions thereof accurate ?  Why not question and find
out the truth?

What  for instance, is the SOURCE of your and my CONSCIOUSNESS ?

What is the purpose of our lives?

What are the "building blocks" of our "selves?"

You are free to have your opinion and I am free to have mine.  I don't
object to your exposition unless it seems illogical to me.

But you have taken what I say and oppose it without giving cogent
reasons.  What are they ?

You speak of Buddhism as though the whole of it was available in one
way or another in current English translation.  What about the
MAHAYANA traditions ?  What about the millions of "ollas" that the
early Tamil invaders of Ceylon burned?  Their content is lost to us
now, but could it be that there was wisdom there that we could have
had today ?

ZEN mans the same as DZYAN,  DHYANA,  WISDOM.  Is wisdom to be
confined to Buddhism as a "philosophy" alone ?

Where is the great BUDDHA now ?  I would say that He is very much
alive and probably far more concerned with the progress of the
THEOSOPHICAL MOVEMENT than with any sectarian views of any kind.

Let's have parallel columns that show what those differences are, and
then we can debate.

But the flight of opinions is about as substantial as a mist.  Can we
narrow it down to facts ?

You will find that the nature of the MONAD is well described in the
SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. 1, 174-5fn, 631-3.

Modern Physical Science holds that the "atom" is a perpetual motion
machine, and its spinning electrons whirl away around their central
nucleus -- since when, and until when -- it is speculation but the
atoms are deemed to be ETERNAL.  So why should the SPIRIT/SOUL not
also be ETERNAL as a point of CONSCIOUSNESS ?

Personally I find no essential difference between Theosophical and
Buddhistic metaphysics.  I do find that there are ungenerous and
inaccurate translations of original Pali texts, as anyone who is
familiar with the work of the Maha Bodhi Society for the past 100
years or so, can tell you.

If you are going to post entries in a Theosophical chat group, then I
would expect it that you might be familiar with basic Theosophical
doctrines and the meaning of terms that are used in Theosophy.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but your seeming ignorance appalls me.

Dallas
dalval@nwc.net 

===============================

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of Gerald
Schueler
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 6:16 PM
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: Theos-World How Immortal are We?


[Dallas writes:]
 >>Consider these:  You (and I and everything else) is an IMMORTAL
MONAD -- a combination of Spirit, matter and MIND.
Being immortals, we are in school -- the school of Life which
functions for us incarnation after incarnation.<<

Dallas,

Well, some things never change. I have been gone for awhile, and you
are still writing the same confusing and misleading stuff. Well, I
won't
be-labor this. We are NOT immortal, and HPB's use of this word
has done a lot of mischief over the years. If this is a "school of
life"
then please let me off.  The only thing we need to "learn" is our
Original
Face in the Zen sense. Has it changed? Are we somehow improved
by all this incarnating business? Can anything that is spiritually
perfect
ever hope to be "improved?"  If so, then I have to wonder how
"perfect"
it was in the first place.

To say that we are immortal monads is exactly what Buddha called
a spiritual heresy, and his entire thrust was to denounce this
pernicious
idea of a permanent individual atma.  Although most Theosophists
adhere
to this misguided idea, they don't have to. I certainly don't. I have
found
that such ideas are misleading and take us around circles rather than
in any meaningful direction. On the other hand, just such
non-meaningful
sojourns are the real purpose of life, and so please keep on enjoying
yourself...

My objection, in case I have been unclear, is not to criticize Dallas
or
anyone else for wanting to believe in an Immortal Monad (whatever the
heck that would be) but rather in stating that such an anti-Buddhist
message is Theosophy, when HPB and Olcott were both Buddhists.
While such ideas may be how Dallas looks at Theosophy, it is not
how I view it. So, I just want to let others know that other
definitions
of "Theosophy" are available. HPB's writings have to be taken in
context. She was a Buddhist and did not believe in any immortal
permanent and unchanging component.

The whole notion of life as a school and us being immortal learners
is exactly the exoteric stuff given out by many of the early
Theosophical
writers. However, it implies a linear ascent upward into Knowledge
from, presumably, the depths of some kind of Ignorance. Linear
progression always requires a beginning. This need for a beginning
resulted in the scientific Big Bang, which has a lot of logical
problems
and pretty much begs the question of what went on beforehand.
Who made us "ignorant" that we should now need lifetimes of
experience to learn? God? If we did this to ourselves once in the far
past, then we can do it again and again. If we unlearn just to
re-learn,
then what is the point?  Maybe it is just to enjoy life and have a
good
time?

Jerry S



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