Theos-Talk Archives (September 1999 Message tt00057)

Sept 6th 1999

Dear Art:

As to the actual existence past and present existence of the
Mahatmas -- it is not a matter of whether your "belief" (or that of
others) is valid.

It is a matter of historical report.  Either a mass of people were
quite deluded, or their number amounts in your esteem to nothing.
Either the logic and system that the Mahatmas have advanced as part of
the history of our Earth and its evolution are dreams, or facts.  If
you have studied the SECRET DOCTRINE and can show that it is
erroneous, then we will have  some basis for respecting your opinion.
But you say that you are a new-comer to Theosophy and are seeking to
understand it.  If you start doubting it, and without adequate study,
then,  where will that get you?

Fortunately Theosophy does not at all depend on the personality of HPB
(who is an historical personage, highly respected by hundreds of
philosophers and scientists, as well as ordinary persons, like you and
me).  Nor does it depend on the existence of the Mahatmas -- although
it is quite logical I think to envisage the possibility of developing
a far wiser view of our life and the future of our world than it is at
present -- and there may be some who have achieved that potential and
eminence.  We ought to give them the benefit of potential existence,
in all good reason, I think.

You are quite welcome to your opinion.  But at the moment, from what
you write, and your self-proclaimed novelty to Theosophy and its
literature, it seems to me that your opinion is premature, if not
quite prejudiced.  Why this should be so, I must leave it to you to
decide on.

You are the one who will have to live with it.  But I would interject,
for you to consider, that there is an element of rashness in it, since
you have not yet well investigated the evidence.  How much have you
read or studied of Theosophy and for how long?  What would you compare
it with?  Do you have details of your study that you could summarize
for us to also consider -- in an attempt to follow the basis for your
conclusions (opinions).?

If you are willing to do that, and later, when you have all the
necessary facts in your presence you still say that the concept if not
the actuality of the Mahatmas is questionable, no doubt you will by
then have more than your own "belief" or "faith" to advance as
evidence for us to review.

In the meantime I would advise scholarly caution.

May I indicate a parallel.  Let us assume that you are quite
uneducated -- have just graduated from 7th grade and stopped your
education there.  You hear of University study and of the educational
level that is graced or proclaimed and named:  "Ph.D."  Are you going
to be skeptical about such a degree?  Suppose that in your life you
have never met such a person, or even if you have, you never knew of
his or her degree.  Would you go about denying that there were "Ph.D.
s" ?

And supposing that someone comes to you and says:  "I am a Ph.D."  Are
you going to demand his academic record before you believe he is what
he proclaims?  Or, do you require that a parade of PH.D's appear ?  If
you think that for us students, it is necessary to have a parade of
"Masters," HPB, or Mahatmas to appear physically before we "believe,"
then I think you are mistaken.  I for one am quite satisfied that the
logic of their propositions and doctrines makes sense (to me).   And
on this basis I have continued my study, and now offer what I have
gathered to those who are interested.  Does that make it wrong ?  Or
is it only a tentative gift of what I and others think may be valuable
to some -- to you, if you wish, and to others on the same basis.

Let's be reasonable.  If you expect respect, then you have to
reciprocate -- that is quite acceptable.  The work of good students
all over the world is that of comparison.  No one is demanding to be
accepted as an "authority."  In such matters there are none.  We are
all students of Nature and her laws and ways.  After all, consider
that we live entirely in NATURE. and we are forever subject to her
ways and laws.  It seems obvious to me that it is of benefit to us all
if we study those closely.  And to further ensure our friendly
associations, we exchange our views with others to have them either
supported or "shot down.":

First study Theosophy.  Then you can ask questions.

Reserve your opinions for the time when you have developed them and
have some basis of proof yourself.  What evidence have you to offer
that is sound and verifiable by others, who can review your work?

You advance the names of currently living persons who have acquired
(in your esteem) eminence in the philosophical field.  Have you
studied them philosophy so as to be able to say accurately if their
erudition is useful and valid?  Or, in general, have you have made a
study of philosophy so as to be able to accurately assert that you
have some basis for giving them a status ?  And refusing any to the
Mahatmas and to HPB ?

Or (with due respect to your right to speak) is it all hear-say and
personal opinion?

Do you really expect those who read what you write, to believe you?
Why should they ?
If you do not, in your own writing, exhibit adequate scholarship and
research, then, is it not just one more opinion?  Who profits?

I therefore, with all respect to your self-proclaimed status as a
beginner, say to you -- find out, then offer your opinions.  Perhaps
Pythagoras was very wise when he required of his students a period of
a preliminary 7 years of silence and listening (acousticoi) before
graduating to the next stage, which permitted questions to be asked.

That is what I, and many hundreds if not thousands of students of
Theosophy have done for many years of investigation into the doctrines
that were offered by those Mahatmas through HPB.  But of course that
means only something to us, and may not to you, yet.

What I mean is that your personal skepticism is for the moment,
unjustified in my eyes for the reasons that you yourself give.

Best wishes,

Dallas

Dallas
dalval@nwc.net 


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com
[mailto:owner-theos-talk@pippin.imagiware.com]On Behalf Of The Clan
Sent: Monday, September 06, 1999 3:28 AM
To: theos-talk@theosophy.com
Subject: Theos-World Existence of the master adepts


I would have to say that the masters who are attributed with the
foundation
of the TS are in the category of belief and are not verifiable
personages
... they are rather flights of fancy and wishful thinking. HPB wrote:

>Let rather the planetary chains and other super- and sub-cosmic
mysteries
>remain a dreamland for those who can neither see, nor yet believe
that
>others can. ..." -- Secret Doctrine Vol I page 167. By Helena
Blavatsky,
>1888.

This put simply is the heart of the matter... there is no objective
proof
of such beings... we are in the category here of those who witnessed
the
golden plates of the Book of Mormon.

This is the category of fantasy and dreamland... Do I disbelieve...
yes I
do! Most emphatically so! When we dwell on these shadow beings
...these
willowthewisps, we devote time and energy that could be used to study
and
appreciate genuine masters such as Swedenborg, Sri Aurobindo,
Krishnamurti,
Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, and many others, who are verifiable
beings
with historical reality who have given the people of the world so much
spiritual guidance that the product of these socalled masters in the
early
years of TS are better left forgotten! - Art Gregory


lgregory@discover.net




















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