Re: Theos-World K, Annie Besant and Closing of ES
May 09, 1999 00:39 AM
by Martin Leiderman
Thanks brother Ramadoss for explaining it one more time, and please re-posted every
time a new person enrolls in this list. We need to make sure that everybody knows
Everybody agrees with you that when a new person, one who has never heard of
theosophy, or the TS, and care less about K. and his Truthful fact about the Truth,
requests literature, and of course, when a new members enrolls, they should know
the below message.
I agree with you on knowing the historical facts, and in facts everybody should know
the good and the ugly of the organization. I also think that Theosophy, and
theosophical doctrine is what is important and not the confusing years surrounding
the poor and manipulated soul we call Krishnamurti, the closing of the ES and
re-opening, and the loss of membership when K. did all what he did. ... but in
this I agree with Dallas, the focus is on Theosophy . . .
A human is only a human being full of possible errors, and in an ever learning quest
for reality which takes several lifetimes with trial and error, and IMHO, is better
to err in the path to the Truth than TAMAS. Errors will produce a balance karmic
reaction which produces suffering . . . Besant and Leadbeater, in their next life,
will not choose K. as the embodiment of the World Teacher.
A quote from the Gita: "In this there is no loss of effort . . . " II,40
Ethics, virtues, spiritual practices along with the study of the Occult Teaching
given by the Masters should be our interest and finding the way to share it is our
duty, I think.
I do not mean to argue forever about it with you. You have a valid historical point
and is well taken, and maybe some members have not come to terms with it and
integrated ii in a healthy manner. But time and your posts will do it.
Look at the situation: I posted something spiritual written by Besant, and you thank
me and replied with the K, ES & AB mess. Ok it means that every time that me or
anyone posts something about someone , you want written also, all the personal
mistakes, errors, and membership count, so we learn that, that person is human,
makes mistakes, we are suffering the consequences of it. I think is a bad, poor
approach to the beauty of the theosophical writing. Ramadoss, I think some day you
should transcend it and put to rest all the TS mistakes and move forward. Or maybe
you have that karmic duty of telling and re-telling the ugly to all. I'll try to
learn to love and accept you they way you are. After all, in this we are all
together . . . the point of blaming A. Besant for the membership count is over and
it is on our lap... if membership is low is because of you, me and all of us, not
able to address their spiritual needs, expecting them to understand our way of
Changing the subject:
And, where do you live? I spend couple of days lecturing in Houston and wanted to
Would you be kind to email me the Pathless Land of K. There is a line in it that I
need clarification. Thanks.
in West Los Angeles
M K Ramadoss wrote:
> Thanks Martin. The points you made are timely and on target. However, since
> you have referenced me in your msg, I think that further clarification is
> Your wrote:
> " We should stop comparing Besant, Judge, Tingley , Crosbie, GDP, Radha,
> Algeo, Grace, Krishnamurti (this one is for Ramadoss who repeats every 6
> months the incident of K, and AB and the closing of the ES) etc, to each
> other , and focus on the WORK, in the Duty of making Theosophy
> available. And learn the synergy of the union instead of the detrimental
> vibrations of superiority."
> The fact of the matter is that historical matters relating to TS cannot be
> ignored. IMHO, anyone interested in Theosophy and TS should be aware of the
> historical facts so that they are fully informed and such facts will be
> helpful to keep the total picture in proper perspective and prevent one
> from being misled from incomplete or inaccurate information that may be
> available. This is especially true of newer recruits to theosophy and TS.
> I think every one should be aware of the tremendous sacrifices made by well
> known theosophical leaders ? whether formal or informal, that should not
> mean that one should ignore things they have done which may not have helped
> theosophy or TS nor anyone should be immune from criticism. Humans being
> imperfect, knowing the full picture helps while being very grateful for the
> sacrifices they have made even in matters they were misguided or may have
> harmed. I also do not know of a single person who has not recognized the
> sacrifices made by the leaders past and present.
> K and the history of TS are intertwined. Many, even long time theosophists
> are not aware of the some of the facts surrounding some of the important
> incidents that occurred. I did not become aware of the details until after
> I was around TS over 35 years. I think that K's declaration of "Truth is a
> Pathless Land" and his severing of all connections with all organizations
> is the most significant event in the history of TS. It was then that the
> downward slide of membership started and no one has been able to stop it
> since then. Closing of the ES by Annie Besant and its reopening is another
> very significant event, even though "officially" ES has not connection with
> TS. At that time Annie Besant had publically declared that almost all the
> members of the General Council of TS are members of ES. So these facts are
> important in my opinion and thanks to Internet we are able to make
> theosophists and especially the newbees aware of them.
> Influence of K on TS and its leadership did not disappear after his "Truth
> is a Pathless Land" declaration and disbanding of Order of the Star of
> East. CJ was known to have maintained his contact (When he returned to
> India after WWII, there is a recorded incident of CJ personally visiting K
> and delivering a bunch of Fiction Novels to K.) Sri Ram, the next
> President, who was Annie Besant's private secretary, had known K for a long
> time and I am sure he did maintain contact with him. In 1960s, when I
> attended the TS International Convention in Adyar, K was also speaking at
> his place each evening. The TS Convention schedule was arranged so that
> there was no conflict with K's lecture schedule. All those attending the
> convention showed up at K's lectures, this included Sri Ram. (It was at
> that time that I had the first opportunity to hear K.) K's influence on TS
> continued in an indirect way. He had known Radha Burnier since her
> childhood. It is reported that after John Coats died and the International
> President's election was called, and Rukmini Arundale ( the wife of George
> Arundale and sister of Sri Ram) was planning run for the office, it was K
> who convinced Radha Burnier to run for the office. She did run and win the
> election. So in a way K's influence on TS continues to this day. So K
> matters of the past, as historical facts are relevant even today, IMHO.
> In view of the above, no one should be surprised if these historical
> matters come up in the maillists from time to time.
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