Theos-World Responses to Leon
Apr 06, 1999 06:31 AM
by Gerald Schueler
>>...your original arguments to defend the concept of enlightenment in
one lifetime, regardless of the practices of previous lifetimes, as
being the "only" possibility, and that all other views are wrong-...>>
Dear Leon, if you want to denigrate what I say, that is your
right, but please repeat what I said properly. I never said
anything like "regardless of the practices of previous lifetimes" which
would be impossible.
>>you have not given any credible evidence >>
There is no such thing for closed minds, and open minds
don't need it.
>>One way to stop incarnating "forever" (and that includes through the
eternality of Brahma) is to put out your spark of consciousness by
separating yourself completely, in mind and spirit, from the flow of
karma through continued, non redeemable acts of ultimate evil, or other
means of spiritual "suicide'. Such "isolation" is not the same as the
"enlightenment" or "Nirvana" spoken of by Patanjali and other ancient
and modern Masters. ">>
Agreed. Except that nirvana implies no need for a return,
while the avichi business implies a postponed need.
>>On the other hand, in the case of the enlightenment of a Bodhisattva,
"reincarnating forever" is a natural and accepted concomitant.>>
Yes.
>>As for "Enlightenment in one lifetime," that may be quite possible for
one who is a new soul .."
I am not ready to believe in "new souls." I think that we have
all reincarnated countless times.
Is "Enlightenment in one lifetime" the same as "Liberation
in one lifetime?" Depends on definitions. If we assume that
they are, then Milarepa is one of many many such people.
Glenn Mullin's Six Yogas of Naropa gives the name of
some other yogis, etc. I prefer to think of them as being
different, though. First comes enlightenment, and then
maybe liberation.
>>So, when we speak of enlightenment, we must remember that it covers
all seven natures, and ranges between many degrees of acquired wisdom
and knowledge from a mere Chela, through a full fledged Master, to an
Avatar (who may have attained his
Mastery in a previous Manvantara).>>
I think everyone agrees with this. There are degrees of
enlightenment.
>>What must rule in all these discussions, however, is, not reference to
authorities, scriptures, or personal opinions, but the scientific, and
impersonal laws of karma operating in accord with the fundamental laws
of cycles and periodicity that are clearly stated as the basis of the
2nd Fundamental Principle--(described in the Proem of the secret
Doctrine...>>
I just love the way you can say in one breath not to go to
authorities, and then immediately say we have to depend
on the authority of HPB and her Masters. And you don't
even realize the inconsistency of your argument...
As far as I am concerned, what must rule is one's own
experiences.
Maybe you missed all the wild discussions we have been
having here on karma? It is pretty clear to me that Karma
is NOT "clear." Nor is there an "authoritative" rule anywhere.
You are giving us your own personal opinion immediately after
saying that we should avoid personal opinions, and you can't
even see the discrepancy, prefering to project your anger onto
me.
>>.. and the many references made to the nature of karma by the
Masters and their direct messengers (See W.Q.J's "Aphorisms on Karma"
and HPB's teachings and comments on Karma) is enough "authority" for
most theosophists. >>
Except that it is obvious from our discussion on this list
that we all have different interpretations of just what karma
is. Or at least this is how I see it. You, on the other hand,
apparently see yourself as "right" and everyone else as
"wrong." Well, you are welcome to your opinions.
>>Except for the special case of Milarepa and its mythic and "magical"
connotations..>>
Milarepa is no special case. He was a normal human being,
and that is exactly why his life holds such fascination and hope.
>>--based on a clear understanding of fundamental laws of karma
>>
There is no such thing as a "clear understanding" of karma, at
least by anyone on this list and I think that we are pretty
representative of today's Theosophists.
<<...which "immutably" rules over all action and reaction
in the universe, from spirit to matter,>>
Karma does not "rule over" action and reaction, it IS
action and reaction. Or is this just my own misguided
interpretation of what you see as clear?
>>no logical credibility can be given to "enlightenment in one
lifetime". >>
If you see none, then give it none, and such a thing will
indeed be unreal and impossible for you.
Enlightenment in a single lifetime is the fruition of countless
past lives. For Buddha. For Milarepa. For me. For you. For everyone. The
doctine is not opposed to that of reincarnation
but rather a slightly different way of looking at it. If we
think enlightenment is impossible in this life, it will be.
Always a pleasure to discuss important topics with you, Leon.
Jerry S
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