Theos-Talk Archives (December 1998 Message tt00238)

SUBJECT:  Bart on Blavatsky's occult phenomena:

Bart Lidofsky wrote to Daniel:

>         Many of her stunts (bells ringing, etc.) were the standard spiritualist
> stunts of the day, which were often faked. If you check out HOUDINI: A
> MAGICIAN AMONG THE SPIRITS, an autobiographical account of Harry
> Houdini's exposures of fakes while searching for true mediums, you will
> be able to find out how many of these stunts were done.
>
>         My statement of "an excellent chance" is based on the fact that they
> were identical to commonly faked stunts, and otherwise sort of
> pointless.

Daniel comments:

Bart, we enter into a huge and controversial subject.  How much do you know about
the history of spiritualism, mediumship, psychical research, parapsychology, the
views of magicians on the paranormal, various forms of skepticism such as found
among CSICOP, etc.?

Yes, I'm aware of Houdini's book.  I've used it in various classes on the
paranormal.  But should we draw any *wide-ranging conclusions* based on what
Houdini believed?  What about other famous and not so famous magicians who
encountered what they considered real paranormal phenomena?  For example, have you
read the account by the famous Harry Kellar who was baffled by the spiritualistic
phenomena of William Eglinton (who is mentioned in the Mahatma Letters)?

You write:

"My statement of 'an excellent chance' is based on the fact that they were
identical to commonly faked stunts, and otherwise sort of pointless."

Pointless?  To whom?  You??

Yes, many if not most of HPB's phenomena were similar to what mediums had also
done.  But HPB usually did such phenomena  without resorting to a dark "seance"
room and without resorting to an unconscious trance state.  Compare HPB's
phenomena with those of, let us say, Eusapia Pallindino, the famous Italian
medium.

It is true that various skeptical magicians over the past 150 years or so have
performed most of the phenomena produced by various mediums or by HPB herself.
Yes, GIVEN THE NECESSARY CONDITIONS, a good magician can perform (i.e. fake)
almost any psychic phenomena known to humankind.  But does such a performance mean
that therefore ALL apparent psychic phenomena are  fake, not-real, suspect, etc.?

Yes, given the proper stage, the proper equipment, and a number of assistants,
magicians can outperform most if not all mediums.  But does that mean therefore
that ALL phenomena produced by mediums, psychics and occultists are therefore
fake, not real, etc.?  One must always ask:  what were the conditions under which
the phenomenon was produced or occurred?

Yes, there are fake mediums.  But does that admission mean that ALL mediums are
fakes?


Bart Lidofsky wrote to Dallas:

>         She did commit fraud. She stated that the Mahatmas produced phenomena
> that she, herself produced. Moria got so angry about it, he broke his
> pipe. At least according to Koot Hoomi.
>
>         She wanted to demonstrate that there was more to the world than one's
> senses could detect. Faked Sidhi's can demonstrate that almost as well
> as the real thing.
>
>         As far as the rest of your statement goes, you are going way beyond my
> statement. I stated that almost certainly (leaving room for a shadow of
> a doubt), HPB faked AT LEAST SOME of her pheonmena. The phrase "at least
> some" can and should be taken to mean that at least some were not faked.
> And I then pointed out that, even if she did so, she did so to prove a
> point that could be proven by faked Sidhi's.
>

Daniel comments:

Bart, here you write that "at least some were NOT faked."  Again, I ask you, what
are your CRITERIA or STANDARDS by which you can judge whether a "phenomena"
produced by HPB was faked or "not faked"?

What is your reasoning and thinking involved in making a conclusion that THIS
phenomenon was faked but THAT phenomenon was genuine?

And please give us just a FEW EXAMPLES to illustrate your thinking on this
subject.  ALSO GIVE US TWO OR THREE EXAMPLES OF WHAT YOU CONSIDER REAL OCCULT
PHENOMENA PERFORMED BY BLAVATSKY.

Your comments remind me of Paul Johnson's words (in his first book IN SEARCH OF
THE MASTERS) that HP Blavatsky performed BOTH real and fake psychic phenomena on
her visit to Simla, India in Sept.-Oct. 1880.  (See THE OCCULT WORLD by A.P.
Sinnett for an account of HPB's occult feats at that time).

I  asked Johnson  how did he know the difference between a real and a faked
phenomenon.  What were the features of a faked phenomenon as opposed to those of a
genuine phenomenon?  He never responded to these questions.

Bart, I'm not trying to put you on the hot seat, but I'm simply trying to
understand what your reasoning on this subject is and how you can determine
"faked" from "real" phenomena in the case of Madame Blavatsky?

Have you read the Hodgson's Report of 1885?  What about Madame Coulomb's pamphlet
in which she "confesses" to being Madame Blavatsky's confederate?  Richard
Hodgson's conclusion was that there were no real, genuine psychic phenomena
associated with Madame Blavatsky.  In other words, ALL OF HER PHENOMENA WAS
FAKED.  If you disagree with Hodgson, show us a few examples of the non-faked
phenomena.  And what are your reasons for accepting THESE PHENOMENA as genuine?