Theos-Talk Archives (August 1998 Message tt00236)

August 15th 1998

Dear Jerry:

It seems clear that some comments on both sides are not melding.

Where does HPB describe any "Abyss ?"

In several places HPB indicates that all the effort done on this
evolutionary side of manifestation (call it Mayavic if you will, since
materially it is indeed not "permanent") is totally lost at the end of
Manvantara ?  [ Particularly this is brought out in her brief article ISIS
UNVEILED AND THE VISISHTADWAITA -- "Theosophist"  January 1886;  ULT HPB
ARTICLES III- 265 ]

===================================        Interjection
Some more details I found are:

BCW IV 422  footnote by HPB

BCW  VI  248-9    (from THEOSOPHIST V p. 246)

ATMA the "One witness"    SD I 570-1

Universal Self-consciousness    SD I 335

HPB LETTERS to APS  -- diagram  p. 247

Best wishes,

Dallas

============================

On the contrary I have found at least two references that state that
Spiritually the work done by the Reincarnating Ego during every Manvantara
is sublimated and transferred to the next Manvantara when it re-emerges.
Now this sounds very close to the concept of eternity and immortality for
some part of our natures (perhaps the highest), as well as the inner aspect
of all other beings (not just mankind alone).

There are many who believe that this life in this Personality is the only
life we will ever live, and they act accordingly.  Are they wrong, or just
mistaken, because the effort to carry thought  out of the personal into the
Individual has not yet been mastered  ?  NO according to their beliefs.
What do we know that they don't ?  The only tool we employ for this inner
conviction of continuity is the idea of Egoity -- of a continuing Self (a
"Spiritual Ahankara ?") which is the animus the energizer within. And we
endow it mentally with the power to survive death.

Using this as one of the arguments, the structure that we may construct as a
demonstration of reincarnation is supplemented from the records of the
Adepts who as CONSCIOUS BEINGS have survived such changes and have witnessed
the changes that every human goes through after the death of this
personality.  At least that is how I see it.  HPB speaks to this point in
detail in the KEY.

I used the term "thought men" to indicate an individual who thinks and uses
the mind.

If we "use the mind" then the mind is a tool of the Real Man.  You speak of
rising above ratiocination, logic, etc., and the use of the mind -- perhaps
this is intuition ?  I look at the "Yoga Sutras of Patanjali," which seem to
throw the most comprehensive light on the functions of the mind and the Self
that uses it.  It appears there that the various steps of self-discipline
are quite explicit.

As to a description of the relative functions and faculties of ATMA,
BUDDHI,  MANAS -- I have used the KEY as a base to study these and as well
various statements found in the SD  ( Vol. I  570-575)  as an example.  The
positions, values and conditions of these faculties (principles) above or
below some "Abyss" is not understood.  As I say above:  where does HPB speak
of an "Abyss ?"  Why should there be one in a spherical UNIVERSE that has no
limits of extension ?  Is this concept extra-Universal ?  If so  ???????  I
don't get it.  [ Do you mean a change of state of consciousness?  If such,
then who or what in us experiences it ?  and, if it is experienced or
conceived of, then the Experiencer is uninfluenced by it.  Is this a concept
raised by the "personality" alone ? ]

My guess is that some writer has advanced this idea in extension of what HPB
first taught and it has caught the fancy of some students.  But what is the
gap and the relationship with HPB's teachings ?  I wonder if it is the gap
between the permanent INDIVIDUALITY (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS) and the Personality
(Lower Manas - Kama - Astral Man ) ?

I can understand what you say when you state that you have faced the ATMA
directly.  Also it is true that HPB in TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE
(pp,. 66- 67 ) speaks of the relations between the HIGHER SELF
 Atma-Buddhi) and the embodied self ( the Lower Manas and Kama conjoined --
that which is awake on this plane of living).

As you say our understanding of what Theosophy teaches may seem to be at
variance, and we may have approached it by different paths and therefore use
terms that either of us are not completely familiar with -- so we agree in
some things and seem to disagree in others, but as I see it, we both profit
from the encounter, and I can certainly see that there are further depths to
be plumbed for me.

Thanks for your consideration.

Best wishes as always,

Dallas

> Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 5:25 PM
> From: "Jerry Schueler" <gschueler@netgsi.com>
> Subject: Re: Adepts are Maya

>>DALLAS:  According to what I understand, the "Masters" (or Mahatmas) exist
>>permenently on the "inner planes" of the whole Universe, namely the three
>>transcendent planes delineated in SD I 200.
>>
>
>This is not my understanding except in the sense that there are usually
>some of them so existing at any time. There are, in fact, six inner planes.
>The three that you refer to are obviously the astral, mental, and casual
>which exist below the Abyss and which contain HPB's 7 Globes.
>I don't know what you mean by "transcendent" but our emotions are
>on the astral right now, and our thoughts are on the mental right now.
=========================================
DALLAS
I dont think the number of "planes" is very relevant, unless we use them
consciously
and without any loss of awareness.

There may be an "abyss" which the personality cannot cross at present,
because it is not refined or attuned to such a transfer.

Yet if there is consciousness "on the other side" something that is both at
home in the "Personality" and the "Individuality" bridges that gap and is
aware of it -- perhaps only theoretically, and in some cases, actually.

===============================================

>
>>In Man's 7-fold nature they correspond to ATMA, BUDDI, MANAS.
>
>I can't see how these three highest principles are on the three lowest
>inner planes. Atma is above the Abyss, Buddhi is on the causal,
>and manas or our thinking mind is on the mental plane.

=====================================

But if you study KEY you find MANAS is dual.  Depending on the nature of the
things thought about, Manas may be HIGHER (spiritual) or LOWER (physical,
material and personal).

====================================
>
>
>>  In the SD HPB
>>states several times that these are immortal principles, and they
constitue
>>the Real Man.
>
>They are immortal and eternal in the sense that they will last so long as
>our manvantara lasts, but they are not eternal in the sense of never
>ever having an end. All three exist in space-time and thus in maya. They
>are, in short, mayavic.
============================================

SEE MY EARLIER COMMENT

==================================

>
>Here, on Earth, our personalities are reflections, obscure,
>>blurred, uncertain as far as our present consciousness when we are awake,
>is
>>concerned.  You and othes may say I am in error in this, but if we think
>>carefully about the Theosophical statements that relate to Consciousness
>>this may become apparent.
>>
>
>I do believe that I read something about the personality being a
>pale reflection of the individuality. Is this what you mean? (sorry,
>I am letting sarcasm get the best of me here, and I should be
>above that sort of stuff). Agreed.
>
>
>>We are therefore "transparent" to the perception of an Adept (Mahatma) who
>>would only "contact" us as personalities if we had some value in our work,
>>for humanity.  This to me is made quite plain in the case of Sinnett (as
an
>>example) and can be readily seen if we read MAHATMA LETTERS and LETTERS
>FROM HPB TO AP SINNETT.
>>
>
>While our bodies and emotions are transparent, they do, I think, see into
>our thoughts and ideas. Contact with such is often done during dreams
>which we may or may not recall when we wake.
===========================
dallas        agreed
=============================
>
>>To our selves, our pesonality. and all its memories and doings and motives
>>(as an embodied mind that uses a physical and an astral brain) IN THIS
LIFE
>>are important.
>>
>
>Of course they are.
>
>
>>But, as I understnd it, it is only when we make a strong effort to raise
>>ourselves as thought-men out of the personality and its comfortable
>>limitations. that we are able by strong effort attain to some of the
>>perceptions of the REal Man -- the ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS.
>>
>
>I think you are confused here, or at least I am not reading you. What are
>"thought-men?"  The strong effort that we make is to raise our
>consciousness beyond thought altogether. This is equivalent to
>rising above the mental plane. We already know what our manas is.
>Most of us already know what our buddhi is (intuition). Few know the
>atma or spirit, but this is because it exists above the Abyss and we
>have to cross that obstacle in order to confront our atma or spiritual
>self.
>==========================================

I mean as thinking beings we are "thought-men".  As emotional beings (our
mind control is overcome by desire or passion) we are "emotional-men."
etc... depending on the "Principle" that currently dominates the prsonality.
Yet, above and beyond both of these is the PERCEIVER whichis unaffected by
the perceptions.
================================


>>For this reason Theosophy says (as I understand it) that we are
>>"IMMORTALS" -- in that root essence, from which our present "Personality"
>>derives its being.
>>
>
>Our present personality is on the mental and astral planes. Our
>Reincarnating
>Ego is on the causal plane, and to see it directly we have to rise above
the
>mental plane to the causal--the equivalent of rising above our thinking
>processes (and yes, it can be done. The result is called samadhi).
>
>
>>We all know that one thing is certain:  this Personality will presently
>>"die" and be disssolved.  Into what ?  What happens ?  Religions try to
>>grapple with this, and if one studies many of those one encounters at
their
>>core the same set of root or core ideas.
>>
>
>Like the physical body, it disintegrates. This is why crossing the Abyss
>is so scary--it is nothing less than the death of the ego. BTW, we are
>said to have a "little death" in orgasm because the ego looses control
>for a few moments. It is said that this is the real reason why some people
>are so opposed to sexual acts.
>
>=========================================

Wher does HPB say this ?

===========================================
>>In order to be brief, let me say that the tenets of Theosophy apply there,
>>and can be seen to lie at those several roots and cores.  Hence HPB states
>>that Theosophy s the Root and substratum of all the many World Religions.
>>
>
>I don't have any problem in what you are saying in the above paragraph, but
>it is very clear to me that your Theosophy is not my Theosophy even though
>we both read and study the same HPB. Interesting, no?
>
====================================
DALLAS
Agreed -- but it just shows how different students have adopted from HPB
that ahich they feel comfortable with.  Now the fact that there are
variances shows each of us that there are areas remaining to be investigated
and vealuated.
===============================================


>
>>But I further add, and in defence of HPB and Theosophy, WE CAN ONLY ASSURE
OURSELVES OF THIS IF WE STUDY WHAT HPB WRITES.
>>
>
>We can also be assured of this when we rise above thoughts and face the
>Abyss and see the Atma directly. I have done so, which just goes to show
how easy it must be.
>
>
>>We may have many ideas, and we may have "made contact" earler that our
>>contact with "Theosophy" as HPB recorded it with some or all of these
>ideas.
>>That does not obviate the fact that Theosophy draws all together and can
be
>>used to shortcut much of the tedium of research.
>
>
>Personally, I rather like Theosophy, at least in the sense that I
understand
>it.
>
>Jerry S.
>
>
>
>