Theos-Talk Archives (June 1998 Message tt00127)

Dallas,

Thanks for your latest.  I was not trying to
be difficult with you concerning Vol. III.
But what I was attempting to do was to show
that one can go back to original sources and
try to find evidence to verify or falsify
various assertions and "reminiscences".

The evidence clearly shows that Archibald
Keightley could NOT have take part in this
alleged destruction of the Volume III MSS
*shortly before HPB's death*.  Other pieces
of evidence can clarify and even possibly
verify/falsify other issues involving Volume
III.  And this procedure can be used on many
other historical issues relating to HPB,
AND even on items and issues regarding her
*teachings*.

Daniel


W. Dallas TenBroeck wrote:
>
> June 4th 1998
>
> Reminiscence concerning the manuscript for SD Vol. 3 and 4.
>
> Dear Daniel:
>
> I was careful in what I said.  It is a reminiscence, and also,
> being nearly 60 years old, is therefore even in my mind, subject
> to inaccuracies of memory as I said.  Had I been able to refine
> it further I would have done so.
>
> You are quite correct in quoting the material for which you have
> reports, dates, etc.  I am also aware of the conflicts involved
> and the resulting surmises as to accuracy.  I am sorry indeed
> that I cannot lay any of those surmises at rest, and, perhaps I
> ought not to have mentioned what I heard, inasmuch as I have
> nothing but memory to go on.  The information came to me as I
> said at least "second hand."  At the time I had no reason to
> doubt it.
>
> Yours as always,        Dallas
>
> =======================================
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Daniel H Caldwell" <blafoun@azstarnet.com>
> Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 8:51 PM
> Subject: Re: More About SD Vol. 3
>
> >Dallas wrote
> >
> >>I was given to
> >> understand, many years ago by an old student of HPB, that very
> >> shortly before her death, she called in Archibald Keightley
> and
> >> G.R.S.Mead and asked where the manuscripts for the 3rd and 4th
> >> Volumes were.  They showed her a large pile all typed and
> ready.
> >> She then said that she had received "instructions" to have
> them
> >> destroyed. They all three set to work and tore them up. This
> is a
> >> reminiscence, and I have not been able to secure independent
> >> verification of this statement made to me.
> >
> >Dallas,
> >
> >"Shortly before her death"??  Are we talking
> >about a few days or a few weeks at the most?
> >
> >Archibald Keightley left England in October,
> >(sometime after Oct. 10th) 1890 and did NOT
> >return to England till after HPB died.
> >See THE PATH, Dec. 1890, p. 295 where
> >Claude Falls Wright in his "London Letter"
> >writes:  "Dr. Keightley leaves us in a few
> >days for New Zealand. . . ."  This document
> >is dated Oct. 1890. Also see other issues of
> >THE PATH, first six months of 1891.
> >
> >
> >Then in another "London Letter" dated
> >January 7, 1891, Claude Wright writes:
> >"H.P.B. has WITHIN THE LAST WEEK OR SO
> >begun to get together the M.S.S. (long
> >ago written) for the third volume of the
> >SECRET DOCTRINE; it will, however, take
> >a good twelve months to prepare for
> >publication."
> >
> >>From the above we see that more than
> >2 months after A. Keightley had left
> >English soil, Claude Wright reports
> >that H.P.B. was working on the
> >3rd volume MSS.  H.P.B. lived 4 more
> >months after this report.
> >
> >In light of the above how could Archibald
> >have been involved in the alleged
> >destruction of the SD III MSS "shortly
> >before HPB's death"?!
> >
> >Basil Crump (close friend and associate
> >of Alice Cleather) wrote in the April, 1939
> >issue of THE CANADIAN THEOSOPHIST about
> >an "elderly gentleman. . . who knew Mr.
> >Thomas Green, . . . [Green had] helped with the
> >printing at the H.P.B. Press in London. . . .
> >Before he died Mr. Green told this gentleman. . .
> >that he. . . was paid to set up the type
> >of vol. III and part of Vol. IV of THE SECRET
> >DOCTRINE.  The proofs of vol. III were
> >passed by H.P.B. shortly before her death
> >and Mr. Green was just going to press with them
> >when he received orders from her to break up the
> >type. . . .That she gave orders for the type
> >to be broken up makes it practically
> >certain that she also destroyed the MSS. . . ."
> >
> >In the May, 1939 issue of the same magazine,
> >James Pryse (well-know theosophist of the
> >early days who lived at London Headquarters
> >during the last 8 or 9 months of HPB's life)
> >demolishs this "story".  Mr. Pryse was the printer
> >who had come from New York to help HPB and her
> >group in setting up the H.P.B. Press in London.
> >
> >Pryse writes:
> >"Mr. Green was not a printer, did not learn to
> >set type. . . . He had no part in the management,
> >and never handled any 'copy' as that was always
> >given to me as manager.  He had nothing to do
> >with the printing until I took him in as my
> >assistant when the printing plant was enlarged,
> >quite a while AFTER H.P.B. discarded her wornout
> >body. . . ."  Pryse gives other good reasons
> >for discounting the story of the anonymous
> >"elderly gentleman" who related this story
> >about Thomas Green to Basil Crump and his
> >associates.
> >
> >This "story" may be related to your
> >"story".  The time period 1939 is close to
> >your estimate 1937-1939.
> >
> >Dallas, I find it somewhat strange that in commenting
> >on the testimonies of Annie Besant, Archibald
> >Keightley and G.R.S. Mead that I quoted in a
> >previous post, you repeatedly wrote:
> >
> >"A blank---a surmise situation---conflict in
> >views."
> >
> >Taking such a "skeptical" point of view one
> >could dismiss most of the positive testimony concerning
> >HPB's life.  And many "skeptics" do!
> >
> >Please, Dallas, read my paper on the origin
> >and authenticity of Vol. III at
> >http://www.azstarnet.com/~blafoun/sdiiimyt.htm
> >
> >The quoted testimony of Besant, A. Keightley and
> >Mead conform to what other eyewitnesses said at the
> >same time.  Read my timeline and look for
> >Ariadne's thread.  *It is there* from 1885 through
> >1897.
> >
> >Again I invite you to compare the contents of the
> >Wurzburg MSS with the contents of Vol. III (of course
> >excluding the esoteric papers).  Again read what Bertram
> >Keightley said about the original Volume I (1886) becoming
> >Volume III (1887).  This is confirmed by Archibald
> >Keightley and HPB herself.
> >
> >Toward the end of my paper, I deal with the
> >"conflicting views" issue.  Please see that section
> >for relevant remarks.
> >
> >Daniel Caldwell
> >