Theos-Talk Archives (May 1998 Message tt00124)

May 5th 1998

Dear Frank:

In the main we do agree.

I still think you need to reverify your dates, as the ones I have
are different.

Since you have perhaps other sources than mine, could you do this
without too much strain ?

Mrs. Tingley in her own biography sets the date at which she
first met Judge.
Mid 1894 if I recall correctly.

Earlier than that Judge and "Jasper Niemand" -- Julia Campbell
Ver Planck (later Mrs. A. Keightley) worked very closely until
she married Archibald Keightley and that took her to England --
hence the value of "Jasper Niemand's" various writings in early
PATH MAGAZINE.  You could almost call the relation their "guru
and chela."   That is as I am able to reconstruct the events and
times.  And I do like to have it accurate, if possible.

You refer to a letter by HPB on the subject of "chela" can you
give me a copy, or let me know where I can find it ?

Thanks,                    Dallas

> From: "Frank Reitemeyer" <ringding@csi.com>
> Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 2:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Coherence

>Dallas, thank you again for your kind comments. Included my
short answers.
>Frank:
>
>>May 3rd 1998
>>
>>Dear "Ringading"  Frank:
>>
>>Some comments below in addition :                Dal
>>---------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
>
>[Frank writes:]
>>>Dear Dallas,
>>>I am sorry, but I remain to my above statement that
>>>Judge was made to head of the E.S. HQ in New York in 1879 by
HPB
>>>when she was leaving for India. I have not all available
primary
>>>sources just at hands but I remember to this sources which you
>>>please might consult:
>>>
>>>1. Judge says the E.S. was founded in 1875 (Practical
Occultism,
>>>from the private letters of WQJ, TUP, p. 299, also in WQJ
>>>Complete works: Echoes of the Orient, II/393).
>>>
>>>2. That E.S. consisted of 7-8 members (Pract. Occ., p. 299)
>
>>========================================================
>>        { DALLAS ]
>>
>>You are right on this.  Thanks for the correction.  I had not
>>noticed it.
>>Dallas
>
>
>The matter is somewhat difficult and the facts are scattered. If
we say the
>true
>story of the Theos. Movement is still unwritten (and perhaps
will be forever),
>the more counts its to the E.S.
>Frank
>
>>=========================================================
>>
>>>3. This E.S. meeting's minutes were obviously signed by WQJ
>>>since 1879. Instance given in Theosophical History April 1995,
p. 204
>>>by Michael Gomes where he mentions such a minute from Sept.,
7,
>>>1887.
>>
>>
>>==========================================================
>>
>>        [ DALLAS ]
>>
>>I believe those Minutes relate to the Theosophical Society, and
I
>>have seen that original 1875  Minute Book at the Pasadena T S
>>Archives.
>
>
>Should to be reexamined in detail. The early E.S. materials
(under whatever
>name - we should not look for blind letters) should be given to
historical
>access.
>
>>Also you must recall that the  T S as originally constituted in
>>New York was a Secret Body of Students, with passwords, grips
>> not exactly, but similar to the Masons)   Several years later
>>the seal of secrecyc was removed and T S meetings were made
open
>>to the public.  In 1888 HPB started the ES.
>
>
>Yes, that fits well with my statement under point 1. The early
esoteric body,
>the heart of the T.S. developed to the semi-secret E.S. In 1887
HPB called
>Judge
>to London to write the E.S. rules for the new E.S. body because
of his occult
>standing as her secretary since 1875.
>I recall the fact that both HPB and WQJ acted as secretaries
while Olcott was
>made President of the outer body.
>We can find the similarity in the Tibetan lamaistic hierarchy
where often the
>real (occult) leaders are acting in the second line to veil
their real
>position.
>Frank
>>=================================================
>>
>>
>>>4. Order from HPB from Sept. 27, 1887, with her N B "By order
of
>>>the Secret Council" (in Theos., History, April 1995, p. 207)
>>>
>>>5. On E.S. meeting in March 29, 1896, the leaders of the E.S.
>>>unanimously endorsed Katherine Tingley as Judge's successor
>>>(Greenwalt, Point Loma Pubc., p. 17) and related to her School
>>>of Antiquity (ibed., p. 92). KT worked as O.H. of the E.S. at
the
>>>latest in 1893 (ibed., p. 73)
>>
>>
>>=================================================
>>
>>        [ DALLAS ]
>>
>>Is the last line accurate as to date ?  If she was elected
after
>>Judge died, Then she could not have been functioning as  OH in
>>1893 --   Mr. Judge was OH then till his death  --  as I
recall,
>>she met Judge mid 1894 ?    Check this please
>
>
>Date accurate quoted from Greenwalt. I can't recall at the
moment of the dead
>letter names of their offices but I know for sure that KT was
after some years
>of training under the rajah acting in a very occult way latest
in 1893 when
>Judges body was dying. Therefore the hurry of HPB in 1889 when
she asked Judge
>whether he has found his new chela.
>Frank
>>=======================================
>>
>>
>>>6. KT refers directly to that E.S. founded by HPB and WQJ in
>>>1875 in NY when she explains: "The real Headquarters of the
Society
>>>has always been in New York, where the Society was founded...
>>>(ibed., p. 30)."
>>
>>=================================================
>>
>>At the convention of the American Section in Boston , Aapril
end,
>>1895 this statement was made pubic by Ayres, Crosbie, etc.. in
a
>>pamphlet issued then that detailed the history of the T S from
>>1875.
>>
>>It was there stated that the HQ of the T S had never left N
  --
>>subsequently when the Ameruican Section TS transformd itself
into
>>the Theosophical Society in America, Olcott asked officially
for
>>the original Minutes, and files, and this was refused.  Or am I
>>wrong ?  It was Olcott's contention that the HQ of the TS was
>>wherever he was -- and that had been accepted as a workable
fact,
>>although he did not return to New York to resume his function
at
>>the original HQ -- which he visited when he passed through from
>>time to time. America was left to sink or swim and it is due to
>>WQJ that it became the outstanding success that it was by
1885/6.
>>
>>==============================================
>>
>>
>>>Could it be other way? One should understand that the
>>>evolutionary development comes from within.
>>>Use the theosophical key of analogy and you have it!
>>>The founding of the T.S. emanated from the E.S., not
otherwise.
>>>A serious and stern reexamination of our primary sources is
>>>needful to understand the thee true story of the T.S.,
>>>her aim and her tasks.
>>>HPB named the E.S. always as the "real heart of the T.S."
>>
>>=================================================
>>
>>You are quite right, and without as backup the Original Lodge
of
>>Adepts (mentioned in ISIS II 98-103) we would not even have the
>>remnants of HPB's ES and TS at present anywhere.  Nor would we
>>have the Theosophical Movement with all its ups and downs,
>>
>>It is my fervent contention that the only basis for any real
>>unity among all of us who are her, his and Their students, is
>>through the philosophy of Theosophy, and not through any kind
of
>>"organizaton."
>>
>>The societies, if they channel Theosophy feely, have no reason
>>for not cooperating.  If however they feel (as organizations)
>>that they have something to preserve or to hide, or to retain
>>some grip over their members, then they will fail in time, as
>>only the freedon of the students can equal the freedom of Truth
>>and Wisdom, or real THEOSOPHY.
>>
>>                Frank:  Many thanks for these details
>>Dal
>
>
>Yes indeed, there is really NO single reason for not
cooperating, but there are
>many reasons to do so. Although GdeP worked hard for it, he
believed that this
>dream will come true not very soon. We see the present bad
situation, the lack
>of understanding what Theosophy is, who our messengers are and
why the theos.
>history has run as it had run and what our crisis of today is...
>I doubt that a real unification is still possible. The teachings
are too
>different. I assume that the different schools will develop in
some centuries
>in different directions similar to the Buddhist schools:
Theravada, Mahayana,
>Vajayana.
>
>My thanks for helping to clear that points, Dallas. Hope someone
will be
>stimulated to study this important points deeper. We all can
learn a many from
>the historical facts. They are mirrors. We should not ignore
this. One who has
>no past has no future, as the German saying goes.
>Frank