Theos-Talk Archives (May 1998 Message tt00104)

Dallas, thank you again for your kind comments. Included my short answers.
Frank:

>May 3rd 1998
>
>Dear "Ringading"  Frank:
>
>Some comments below in addition :                Dal
>-----------------------------------------------------------------


[Frank writes:]
>>Dear Dallas,
>>I am sorry, but I remain to my above statement that
>>Judge was made to head of the E.S. HQ in New York in 1879 by HPB
>>when she was leaving for India. I have not all available primary
>>sources just at hands but I remember to this sources which you
>>please might consult:
>>
>>1. Judge says the E.S. was founded in 1875 (Practical Occultism,
>>from the private letters of WQJ, TUP, p. 299, also in WQJ
>>Complete works: Echoes of the Orient, II/393).
>>
>>2. That E.S. consisted of 7-8 members (Pract. Occ., p. 299)

>========================================================
>        { DALLAS ]
>
>You are right on this.  Thanks for the correction.  I had not
>noticed it.
>Dallas


The matter is somewhat difficult and the facts are scattered. If we say the
true
story of the Theos. Movement is still unwritten (and perhaps will be forever),
the more counts its to the E.S.
Frank

>=========================================================
>
>>3. This E.S. meeting's minutes were obviously signed by WQJ
>>since 1879. Instance given in Theosophical History April 1995, p. 204
>>by Michael Gomes where he mentions such a minute from Sept., 7,
>>1887.
>
>
>==========================================================
>
>        [ DALLAS ]
>
>I believe those Minutes relate to the Theosophical Society, and I
>have seen that original 1875  Minute Book at the Pasadena T S
>Archives.


Should to be reexamined in detail. The early E.S. materials (under whatever
name - we should not look for blind letters) should be given to historical
access.

>Also you must recall that the  T S as originally constituted in
>New York was a Secret Body of Students, with passwords, grips
> not exactly, but similar to the Masons)   Several years later
>the seal of secrecyc was removed and T S meetings were made open
>to the public.  In 1888 HPB started the ES.


Yes, that fits well with my statement under point 1. The early esoteric body,
the heart of the T.S. developed to the semi-secret E.S. In 1887 HPB called
Judge
to London to write the E.S. rules for the new E.S. body because of his occult
standing as her secretary since 1875.
I recall the fact that both HPB and WQJ acted as secretaries while Olcott was
made President of the outer body.
We can find the similarity in the Tibetan lamaistic hierarchy where often the
real (occult) leaders are acting in the second line to veil their real
position.
Frank
>=================================================
>
>
>>4. Order from HPB from Sept. 27, 1887, with her N B "By order of
>>the Secret Council" (in Theos., History, April 1995, p. 207)
>>
>>5. On E.S. meeting in March 29, 1896, the leaders of the E.S.
>>unanimously endorsed Katherine Tingley as Judge's successor
>>(Greenwalt, Point Loma Pubc., p. 17) and related to her School
>>of Antiquity (ibed., p. 92). KT worked as O.H. of the E.S. at the
>>latest in 1893 (ibed., p. 73)
>
>
>=================================================
>
>        [ DALLAS ]
>
>Is the last line accurate as to date ?  If she was elected after
>Judge died, Then she could not have been functioning as  OH in
>1893 --   Mr. Judge was OH then till his death  --  as I recall,
>she met Judge mid 1894 ?    Check this please


The date was accurate quoted from Greenwalt. I can't recall at the moment of the dead
letter names of their offices but I know for sure that KT was after some years
of training under the rajah acting in a very occult way latest in 1893 when
Judges body was dying. Therefore the hurry of HPB in 1889 when she asked Judge
whether he has found his new chela.
Frank
>=======================================
>
>
>>6. KT refers directly to that E.S. founded by HPB and WQJ in
>>1875 in NY when she explains: "The real Headquarters of the Society
>>has always been in New York, where the Society was founded...
>>(ibed., p. 30)."
>
>=================================================
>
>At the convention of the American Section in Boston , Aapril end,
>1895 this statement was made pubic by Ayres, Crosbie, etc.. in a
>pamphlet issued then that detailed the history of the T S from
>1875.
>
>It was there stated that the HQ of the T S had never left N Y  --
>subsequently when the Ameruican Section TS transformd itself into
>the Theosophical Society in America, Olcott asked officially for
>the original Minutes, and files, and this was refused.  Or am I
>wrong ?  It was Olcott's contention that the HQ of the TS was
>wherever he was -- and that had been accepted as a workable fact,
>although he did not return to New York to resume his function at
>the original HQ -- which he visited when he passed through from
>time to time. America was left to sink or swim and it is due to
>WQJ that it became the outstanding success that it was by 1885/6.
>
>==============================================
>
>
>>Could it be other way? One should understand that the
>>evolutionary development comes from within.
>>Use the theosophical key of analogy and you have it!
>>The founding of the T.S. emanated from the E.S., not otherwise.
>>A serious and stern reexamination of our primary sources is
>>needful to understand the thee true story of the T.S.,
>>her aim and her tasks.
>>HPB named the E.S. always as the "real heart of the T.S."
>
>=================================================
>
>You are quite right, and without as backup the Original Lodge of
>Adepts (mentioned in ISIS II 98-103) we would not even have the
>remnants of HPB's ES and TS at present anywhere.  Nor would we
>have the Theosophical Movement with all its ups and downs,
>
>It is my fervent contention that the only basis for any real
>unity among all of us who are her, his and Their students, is
>through the philosophy of Theosophy, and not through any kind of
>"organizaton."
>
>The societies, if they channel Theosophy feely, have no reason
>for not cooperating.  If however they feel (as organizations)
>that they have something to preserve or to hide, or to retain
>some grip over their members, then they will fail in time, as
>only the freedon of the students can equal the freedom of Truth
>and Wisdom, or real THEOSOPHY.
>
>                Frank:  Many thanks for these details
>Dal


Yes indeed, there is really NO single reason for not cooperating, but there are
many reasons to do so. Although GdeP worked hard for it, he believed that this
dream will come true not very soon. We see the present bad situation, the lack
of understanding what Theosophy is, who our messengers are and why the theos.
history has run as it had run and what our crisis of today is...
I doubt that a real unification is still possible. The teachings are too
different. I assume that the different schools will develop in some centuries
in different directions similar to the Buddhist schools: Theravada, Mahayana,
Vajayana.

My thanks for helping to clear that points, Dallas. Hope someone will be
stimulated to study this important points deeper. We all can learn a many from
the historical facts. They are mirrors. We should not ignore this. One who has
no past has no future, as the German saying goes.
Frank