Theos-Talk Archives (February 2012 Message tt00070)

Dear Govert and friends

My views are:

I will stop here. I think we can put this exchange to rest. 
I can only recommend, that those interested in the exchange carefully read what I have written in my previous posts in this thread or these recent threads on Bibracte and Autun.

The below I merely respond so to clarify what I perceive to be a misunderstanding - and - so to seek to explain what seemingly is not being understood...


Govert wrote:
"So if 1) the center of Bibracte and the center of Autun are 20 km apart (NOT a few kilometers as you keep insisting), and 2) the circumference of Bibracte is 5 km and Autun 6 km, then"......"the absence of sprawling suburbs"

M. Sufilight says:

The question is whether Bibractes and Autun only should be defined as such with regard to the limits of their town walls or also when including the buildings found outside the town walls, in the near neighbourhood or just out side the town walls.

I think you misunderstand me. I am not insisting such a thing, with regard to the centres of the two towns and the distance between the centres of two towns. But I am insisting on - fewer kilometers than 20 km (and not only "a few" as you mention I claim) - with regard to distance between the outer borders of the two towns, suburbs included outside both of the town walls. (In old times - the town limits did not only stretch to the town walls.) This distance must certainly have been less than the about 18-20 km (rather 10 km or so if not rather less) whehn including suburbs or similar, which also are shown by collecting info from more than one of the references I have given. The reason for this is simply that the two towns were actually larger than the town walls themselves and reached outside the town walls - this is as I see it evidenced by the size of their populations, Autun especially. (Where, did all the people come from to fill such a large town as Autun with such a large Theatre? - If they not already where present nearby when Autun was build?). Try to recheck the maps in my previous posts on archaeological dicoveries outside the city walls of both towns. And add the fact that Autun with a theatre having 17-20.000 seat most likely was having a population of at least 100.000 if not 500.000. This is as I see it a logical conclusion.
Why -apperently - insist on that people only lived inside the town walls of Autun and also Bibractes - and not just outside of them or so as well, as it happened in the old days? Especially when logic tells something else? And when the below maps clearly more than indicate that there indeed existed suburbs or similar outside Bibractes town walls.


_______
Try this reference and the maps...from my previous post:

Chronique des recherches sur le Mont Beuvray : 2006-2008
Also here...Sattellite photos using LIDAR images....of Bibracte...Not without errors, or lack of insight, but hepful in dicovering more about the area.
(See the map at point 61 - research of an area the size of 36 square kilometres. --- Those who are better at French than I am could translate important passages of this very interesting article, which as far as I can tell - reveal that science are by no means finished in concluding - about a whole lot of things on Bibracte and its chronology. And that the area around Bibracte is not the best for archaeological excavations due to the environment etc. etc.)
http://rae.revues.org/6502
http://rae.revues.org/6502?file=1 (PDF --- better photos and maps !, report 211 pages. Look at the size-indicators on the maps. So maybe Bibracte was larger than some expect it to have been?)
(Now each reader can do there own math.)

More precisely this map - measuring 6x6 kilometers taken from the above PDFand link.
http://rae.revues.org/docannexe/image/6502/img-28.jpg
(Were there no suburbs? I will question that based on this map alone.)

And let us remember that not all the area of Bibractes and Autun has been excavated. And adding this to the fact that Autun from the beginning had a huge theatre with 17-20.000 seats - This make me ask: If the people where not already living nearby Autun before it was build or named in 15 BCE - WHERE DID THEY COME FROM? 

- The town of Autun was clearly a major one already in 15 BCE - or a town with suburbs nearby was so. A town with a theatre having 17-20.000 seats did certainly not only have 20.000 inhabitants - it must have had at least 100.000 inhabitants if not much more. And likely more. Where did the inhabitants come from? Rome? - And 500.000 is certainly not that unlikely a figure for a town with a theatre of such a size. A town having just 100.000 inhabitants - normally has a distance from its center to its outer town limits - of something like 6-10 km with suburbs included - if not more. And if the figure is 500.000, we can do our own math on that. But science does not mention this in any of the papers I have seen - so I cannot document it more clearly than this. - That is, with the papers I am able to provide online - for the time being...
(I am myself living in a city with about 250-300.000 inhabitants. - The distance from the center to the outer limits of the town is about 15-20 km, at some places. And we have quite a number of buildings with several storeys - something they did not have in the old days at Autun and Bibractes. I suggest that each person do their own math on this or similar facts - and compare this with regard to Autun - and also Bibractes - and consider the actual size of these two towns based on the references I have provided in the above and in other posts. Some might disagree - but then I would like them to provide a logical explanation to the above account and links and maps referred to by me.)

So if we in fact had two towns which outer borders - only were say 6 km apart - depending on time-periods as well - then Autun or "New Bibractes" were certainly almost existing at the same place, or very close, geographically speaking. But as I said in my previous post - they were as I see it never completely connected. The point being: Yes, the old Bibractes was not Autun, but it was - almost - located at the same place if the size of both towns - yields a number of 100.000 if not 500.000 inhabitants with the suburbs included. And Bibractes, therefore became Autun in many respects - when the inhabitants moved to Autun from Bibractes.

That was all I intended to say.

But certainly an interesting place and region...Thanks for mentoining it.


__________
Meanwhile almost at the same time and even before that time...at a different place, but related....

Hero of Alexandria (10-70 AD)
(He invented automatic doors almost at the same time. Also a vending machine. And (Hero engine) the Aeolipile - a rocket like engine based on steam. (It was described in the 1st century BC by Vitruvius in his treatise De architectura) ...They were certainly not that dumb in those days as some might believe...Smile....)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria

See also 

Ancient Greek technology
(For instance a Liquid-driven escapement (((Greek washstand automaton of the 3rd century BC working by the earliest known instance of an escapement mechanism[3] The earliest liquid-driven escapement was described by the Greek engineer Philo of Byzantium (3rd century BC) in his technical treatise Pneumatics (chapter 31) as part of a washstand.))) --- (((Excavations at Olympus as well as Athens have revealed extensive plumbing systems for baths and fountains as well as for personal use. Dated 500 BCE.))) - also - (((A shower room for female athletes with plumbed-in water is depicted on an Athenian vase. A whole complex of shower-baths was also found in a 2nd century BC gymnasium at Pergamum.))) ---(((Greeks continued and sophisticated the construction of water and hydraulic power systems. An example is the construction by Eupalinos, under a public contract, of a watering channel for Samos. An early example of the usage of hydraulic wheel, probably the earliest in Europe, is the Perachora wheel (3rd c. BC).[2] Notable is the construction of the first hydraulic automata by Ctesibius (flourished c. 270 BC)[citation needed] and Hero of Alexandria (c. 10â80 AD)[citation needed]. Hero describes a number of working machines using hydraulic power[citation needed], such as the force pump, which is known from many Roman sites as having been used for raising water and in fire engines))) --- And more)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_technology


And people in general think that we live in an advanced age - with technology of all sorts.
Maybe it indeed is the Kali Yuga.





M. Sufilight





  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Govert Schuller 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 7:40 PM
  Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question


    
  Morten,

  Unfortunately I have to repeat my implied question here: âI donât know what you still like to prove with your questions and speculations ââ

  You seem to grasp at straws, but to what end? Very mystifying. 

  Anyway, my apologies for not providing the right formula. I meant:

  Circumference = 2 x pi x radius. (Not C=2, but C=2pr. The symbols just dropped out when posted.)

  So if 1) the center of Bibracte and the center of Autun are 20 km apart (NOT a few kilometers as you keep insisting), and 2) the circumference of Bibracte is 5 km and Autun 6 km, then:

  Bibracteâs radius is ca. 0.8 km and Autunâs radius is ca. 0.96 km and therefore the distance between their ramparts, or outer perimeters, is:

  20 - (0.8 + 0.96) = 18.24 km. 

  Autun will then fit 18.24 / (2 x 0.96) = 9.5 times in between, and 

  Bibracte will fit 18.24 / (2 x 0.8) = 11.4 times in between. 

  So, given the very hilly terrain around Bibracte, the absence of sprawling suburbs, and the 18.24 km âas the crow fliesâ distance between A and B, the probability that there is no overlap between the two is very, very high. Ergo, HPB â 

  From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of M. Sufilight
  Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:52 PM
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

  Dear Govert and friends

  My views are:

  Govert wrote:
  "There was no town there before 15 BCE, therefore there was never a name change."

  M. Sufilight says:
  Perhaps when we refer to the exact spot dead center of the town Autun. And it is only a view. When we consider the nearby area, we get a different perspective.
  There is no evidence on there there was no large group of peorple livning nearby Autun in those days before 15 BCE. It seems to be more likely that there did - when one consider the area of the town and its nearby discoveries (see the references I gave in my previous posts to you and Jacques) and with a theatre having 17-20.000 seats. - Just calculate children, servants or slaves, and lower class people not attending the theatre. One does not build such a huge theatre just for the fun of it with only for instance 1.000 persons using the seats. This is not mere speculation it is simple logic and math. Either the persons was already there, or a huge number of persons got relocated from somewhere. But where from? Another town? Small villages in the area?

  How old was the wooden temple found beneath the Janus Temple in Autun?

  Dating various buildings and chronology is uncertain says the scholars. This is also a fact that need to be given consideration.
  This is not speculation but a question and a fact.

  One speculation to consider. I wonder whether one will discover more ancient buildings (perhaps of wood) when one move just one or two kilomters - farther - in the direction of Bibracte from Autun and excavate there. Would any such findings at such a spot be called a new town and not related to Autun, or just named a suburb?

  Science and a number of persons still believe that there is something they call "dead matter." This depsite atoms rotate and planets rotate by some unknown force.
  Today Autun was build 1st century BCE says ordinary science - and there was nothing there or nearby before that time says science. But science only says so because they have not found anything to tell them the opposite, and they even say they are uncertan about dating their findings and uncertain about a whole lot of things.

  Govert wrote:
  "I donât know what you still like to prove with your questions and speculations, but (as Iâm taking a math class now) I have the following problem for you (and others whoâd like to test their college algebra):

  If a) Bibracte has a rampart of 5 km long and b) Autun has a rampart of 6 km long and c) the distance between the center of the two places is about 20 km, then, my questions are: 1) how many Bibractes and 2) how many Autuns might fit in between? (The formula to use is C=2)

  âThe site of Bibracte: By its peak in the 1st century BC, Bibracte encompassed about 330 acres within a 5 km long rampart.â"

  M. Sufilight says:
  Yes. But, as far as I can tell, you still leave out (in your references) the area outside the town-walls - and - what archaeologist have found and not found so far. 
  Many scholars agree upon that the old Bibractes became Autun after 58BCE when Caesar arrived to the area, simply due to relocation of the population in the area.
  Not by mere name-change. The people simply relocated a few kilometers away to that area - which today is named Autun, and that this likely happended relatively slowly, because - later - Roman buildings has been found inside Bibracte, compared to earlier ones beneath them. (See wikipedia on Bibracte.--- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibracte )

  Chronique des recherches sur le Mont Beuvray : 2006-2008
  Also here...Sattellite photos using LIDAR images....of Bibracte...Not without errors, or lack of insight, but hepful in dicovering more about the area.
  (See the map at point 61 - research of an area the size of 36 square kilometres. --- Those who are better at French than I am could translate important passages of this very interesting article, which as far as I can tell - reveal that science are by no means finished in concluding - about a whole lot of things on Bibracte and its chronology. And that the area around Bibracte is not the best for archaeological excavations due to the environment etc. etc.)
  http://rae.revues.org/6502
  http://rae.revues.org/6502?file=1 (PDF --- better photos and maps !, report 211 pages. Look at the size-indicators on the maps. So maybe Bibracte was larger than some expect it to have been?)
  (Now each reader can do there own math.)

  From the below local website we have that there was up to 20.000 inhabitants INSIDE the walls of Bibracte. And this is only an estimate. The number of inhabitants outside the walls are as far as I know not mentioned by any archaeologist. Maybe one or two have estimated it, but I have not seen the number so far. And ordinary science are not aware of the real number, as far as I can tell.

  Bibracte? (Mount Beuvray)
  "Mount Beuvray has always been a site subject to substantial human frequentation. However it was not until the late 2nd century BC that the Aedui, a Gallic people, decided to establish their capital there and create a real town, Bibracte. Surrounded by a perimeter wall, at its height it sheltered an estimated population of 5,000 to 20,000 inhabitants.
  Vercingetorix was proclaimed the chief of the Gallic coalition there in 52 BC, and Julius Caesar completed writing his Commentaries on the Gallic War there.
  Bibracte, which was an economic, political and religious centre, gives a detailed account of the lives of the Gauls during the 2nd and 1st centuries BC. Year after year, excavations are revealing its fortifications, monumental gates, public buildings, a central avenue that passed through various quarters, etc.
  Bibracte was however abandoned little more than a century after it was founded, in favour of Augustodunum (Autun), erected 25 kilometres away from Mount Beuvray, from the late 1st century BC.
  Nowadays, Bibracte is a benchmark site for the study of Celtic civilisation. "
  http://www.bibracte.fr/page.php?langue=en <http://www.bibracte.fr/page.php?langue=en&rub=02&srub=01&ssrub=04> &rub=02&srub=01&ssrub=04
  (But the above is scientific knowledge. The reality are likely not the same. We can safely say this, because science keep changing its views about archaeology. They do not use any exact science. Smile.)

  The most likely conclusion is:
  The major modern city in the valley is Autun was founded by Caesar as Augustodunum Aedorum, finally in 15 BCE. And there was a large population in the area else they would not have been building a theatre with 17-20.000 seats, --- and the population in the town was likely relocated Celtic inhabitants of Bibracte town and because of the size of Autun also from elsewhere (WHERE FROM?) after the Roman conquest. In that sense Bibracte became Autun. The size of both towns or at least the population connected with them - out-side - the town walls are likely underestimated (or simply not taken into account due to lack of knowledge of its size) - as far as I can tell from the above links and maps. There have been excavated roman buildings inside the walls at Bibracte - on top of older Celtic ones. Those Roman buildings seem to have been build in haste - and - do not follow normal structure and planning. And there are indications on that there has been a forum in Bibracte as well - according to some scholars. Excavations have not revealed everything yet.
  (The following page with satellite images show me, that the to towns Autun and old Bibracte never were one huge city in itself. http://www.informatics.org/france/sat.html - But that the towns might have been larger than most expect them to be - seems likely from the other links I have provided in the above.)

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Govert Schuller 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com> 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 7:59 PM
  Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

  Dear Morten,

  To answer your question: Autunâs name was originally Augustodunum and was founded with that name. There was no town there before 15 BCE, therefore there was never a name change. 

  I donât know what you still like to prove with your questions and speculations, but (as Iâm taking a math class now) I have the following problem for you (and others whoâd like to test their college algebra):

  If a) Bibracte has a rampart of 5 km long and b) Autun has a rampart of 6 km long and c) the distance between the center of the two places is about 20 km, then, my questions are: 1) how many Bibractes and 2) how many Autuns might fit in between? (The formula to use is C=2)

  âThe site of Bibracte: By its peak in the 1st century BC, Bibracte encompassed about 330 acres within a 5 km long rampart.â

  (Athena Review: Journal of Archaeology, History, and Exploration at http://www.athenapub.com/bibmap1.htm)

  âlâimmense enceinte augustÃenne avait à lâorigine un dÃveloppà de 6 kilomÃtres et Ãtait percÃe de quatre portes monumentales.â

  <http://www.autun.com/tourisme/autun_story.php> http://www.autun.com/tourisme/autun_story.php

  Anyway, to drive the point home:

  A nice visual of the distance between the two places can be seen on a scale model at the Bibracte Museum. <http://www.bloganavazquez.com/tag/oppidum-celta/> http://www.bloganavazquez.com/tag/oppidum-celta/

  Drawing of how Augustodunum might have looked like. 

  <http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-autun-augustodunum-descriptif-de-la-ville.jpg> http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-autun-augustodunum-descriptif-de-la-ville.jpg

  Map of Bibracte with the grey areas indicating the inhabited areas. 

  <http://chateauchinon.chez-alice.fr/img/Histoire/Pl_OppidumBibracte.jpg> http://chateauchinon.chez-alice.fr/img/Histoire/Pl_OppidumBibracte.jpg

  Drawing of the Gallo-Roman villas, probably the largest buildings found in Bibracte. 

  <http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-bibracte-maisons-du-parc-aux-chevaux.jpg> http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-bibracte-maisons-du-parc-aux-chevaux.jpg

  Ergo, HPB â.

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