Theos-Talk Archives (February 2012 Message tt00069)

Morten,

 

Unfortunately I have to repeat my implied question here: âI donât know what you still like to prove with your questions and speculations ââ

 

You seem to grasp at straws, but to what end? Very mystifying. 

 

 

Anyway, my apologies for not providing the right formula. I meant:

 

Circumference = 2 x pi x radius. (Not C=2, but C=2pr. The symbols just dropped out when posted.)

 

So if 1) the center of Bibracte and the center of Autun are 20 km apart (NOT a few kilometers as you keep insisting), and 2) the circumference of Bibracte is 5 km and Autun 6 km, then:

 

Bibracteâs radius is ca. 0.8 km and Autunâs radius is ca. 0.96 km and therefore the distance between their ramparts, or outer perimeters, is:

 

20 - (0.8 + 0.96) = 18.24 km. 

 

Autun will then fit 18.24 / (2 x 0.96)  = 9.5 times in between, and 

 

Bibracte will fit 18.24 / (2 x 0.8) = 11.4 times in between. 

 

So, given the very hilly terrain around Bibracte, the absence of sprawling suburbs, and the 18.24 km âas the crow fliesâ distance between A and B, the probability that there is no overlap between the two is very, very high. Ergo, HPB â   

 

 

 

 

 

From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of M. Sufilight
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 3:52 PM
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

 

  

Dear Govert and friends

My views are:

Govert wrote:
"There was no town there before 15 BCE, therefore there was never a name change."

M. Sufilight says:
Perhaps when we refer to the exact spot dead center of the town Autun. And it is only a view. When we consider the nearby area, we get a different perspective.
There is no evidence on there there was no large group of peorple livning nearby Autun in those days before 15 BCE. It seems to be more likely that there did - when one consider the area of the town and its nearby discoveries (see the references I gave in my previous posts to you and Jacques) and with a theatre having 17-20.000 seats. - Just calculate children, servants or slaves, and lower class people not attending the theatre. One does not build such a huge theatre just for the fun of it with only for instance 1.000 persons using the seats. This is not mere speculation it is simple logic and math. Either the persons was already there, or a huge number of persons got relocated from somewhere. But where from? Another town? Small villages in the area?

How old was the wooden temple found beneath the Janus Temple in Autun?

Dating various buildings and chronology is uncertain says the scholars. This is also a fact that need to be given consideration.
This is not speculation but a question and a fact.

One speculation to consider. I wonder whether one will discover more ancient buildings (perhaps of wood) when one move just one or two kilomters - farther - in the direction of Bibracte from Autun and excavate there. Would any such findings at such a spot be called a new town and not related to Autun, or just named a suburb?

Science and a number of persons still believe that there is something they call "dead matter." This depsite atoms rotate and planets rotate by some unknown force.
Today Autun was build 1st century BCE says ordinary science - and there was nothing there or nearby before that time says science. But science only says so because they have not found anything to tell them the opposite, and they even say they are uncertan about dating their findings and uncertain about a whole lot of things.

Govert wrote:
"I donât know what you still like to prove with your questions and speculations, but (as Iâm taking a math class now) I have the following problem for you (and others whoâd like to test their college algebra):

If a) Bibracte has a rampart of 5 km long and b) Autun has a rampart of 6 km long and c) the distance between the center of the two places is about 20 km, then, my questions are: 1) how many Bibractes and 2) how many Autuns might fit in between? (The formula to use is C=2)

âThe site of Bibracte: By its peak in the 1st century BC, Bibracte encompassed about 330 acres within a 5 km long rampart.â"

M. Sufilight says:
Yes. But, as far as I can tell, you still leave out (in your references) the area outside the town-walls - and - what archaeologist have found and not found so far. 
Many scholars agree upon that the old Bibractes became Autun after 58BCE when Caesar arrived to the area, simply due to relocation of the population in the area.
Not by mere name-change. The people simply relocated a few kilometers away to that area - which today is named Autun, and that this likely happended relatively slowly, because - later - Roman buildings has been found inside Bibracte, compared to earlier ones beneath them. (See wikipedia on Bibracte.--- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibracte )

Chronique des recherches sur le Mont Beuvray : 2006-2008
Also here...Sattellite photos using LIDAR images....of Bibracte...Not without errors, or lack of insight, but hepful in dicovering more about the area.
(See the map at point 61 - research of an area the size of 36 square kilometres. --- Those who are better at French than I am could translate important passages of this very interesting article, which as far as I can tell - reveal that science are by no means finished in concluding - about a whole lot of things on Bibracte and its chronology. And that the area around Bibracte is not the best for archaeological excavations due to the environment etc. etc.)
http://rae.revues.org/6502
http://rae.revues.org/6502?file=1 (PDF --- better photos and maps !, report 211 pages. Look at the size-indicators on the maps. So maybe Bibracte was larger than some expect it to have been?)
(Now each reader can do there own math.)

>From the below local website we have that there was up to 20.000 inhabitants INSIDE the walls of Bibracte. And this is only an estimate. The number of inhabitants outside the walls are as far as I know not mentioned by any archaeologist. Maybe one or two have estimated it, but I have not seen the number so far. And ordinary science are not aware of the real number, as far as I can tell.

Bibracte? (Mount Beuvray)
"Mount Beuvray has always been a site subject to substantial human frequentation. However it was not until the late 2nd century BC that the Aedui, a Gallic people, decided to establish their capital there and create a real town, Bibracte. Surrounded by a perimeter wall, at its height it sheltered an estimated population of 5,000 to 20,000 inhabitants.
Vercingetorix was proclaimed the chief of the Gallic coalition there in 52 BC, and Julius Caesar completed writing his Commentaries on the Gallic War there.
Bibracte, which was an economic, political and religious centre, gives a detailed account of the lives of the Gauls during the 2nd and 1st centuries BC. Year after year, excavations are revealing its fortifications, monumental gates, public buildings, a central avenue that passed through various quarters, etc.
Bibracte was however abandoned little more than a century after it was founded, in favour of Augustodunum (Autun), erected 25 kilometres away from Mount Beuvray, from the late 1st century BC.
Nowadays, Bibracte is a benchmark site for the study of Celtic civilisation. "
http://www.bibracte.fr/page.php?langue=en <http://www.bibracte.fr/page.php?langue=en&rub=02&srub=01&ssrub=04> &rub=02&srub=01&ssrub=04
(But the above is scientific knowledge. The reality are likely not the same. We can safely say this, because science keep changing its views about archaeology. They do not use any exact science. Smile.)

The most likely conclusion is:
The major modern city in the valley is Autun was founded by Caesar as Augustodunum Aedorum, finally in 15 BCE. And there was a large population in the area else they would not have been building a theatre with 17-20.000 seats, --- and the population in the town was likely relocated Celtic inhabitants of Bibracte town and because of the size of Autun also from elsewhere (WHERE FROM?) after the Roman conquest. In that sense Bibracte became Autun. The size of both towns or at least the population connected with them - out-side - the town walls are likely underestimated (or simply not taken into account due to lack of knowledge of its size) - as far as I can tell from the above links and maps. There have been excavated roman buildings inside the walls at Bibracte - on top of older Celtic ones. Those Roman buildings seem to have been build in haste - and - do not follow normal structure and planning. And there are indications on that there has been a forum in Bibracte as well - according to some scholars. Excavations have not revealed everything yet.
(The following page with satellite images show me, that the to towns Autun and old Bibracte never were one huge city in itself. http://www.informatics.org/france/sat.html - But that the towns might have been larger than most expect them to be - seems likely from the other links I have provided in the above.)

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Govert Schuller 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <mailto:theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>  
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: theos-talk Sufilight with an Important Question

Dear Morten,

To answer your question: Autunâs name was originally Augustodunum and was founded with that name. There was no town there before 15 BCE, therefore there was never a name change. 

I donât know what you still like to prove with your questions and speculations, but (as Iâm taking a math class now) I have the following problem for you (and others whoâd like to test their college algebra):

If a) Bibracte has a rampart of 5 km long and b) Autun has a rampart of 6 km long and c) the distance between the center of the two places is about 20 km, then, my questions are: 1) how many Bibractes and 2) how many Autuns might fit in between? (The formula to use is C=2)

âThe site of Bibracte: By its peak in the 1st century BC, Bibracte encompassed about 330 acres within a 5 km long rampart.â

(Athena Review: Journal of Archaeology, History, and Exploration at http://www.athenapub.com/bibmap1.htm)

âlâimmense enceinte augustÃenne avait à lâorigine un dÃveloppà de 6 kilomÃtres et Ãtait percÃe de quatre portes monumentales.â

<http://www.autun.com/tourisme/autun_story.php> http://www.autun.com/tourisme/autun_story.php

Anyway, to drive the point home:

A nice visual of the distance between the two places can be seen on a scale model at the Bibracte Museum. <http://www.bloganavazquez.com/tag/oppidum-celta/> http://www.bloganavazquez.com/tag/oppidum-celta/

Drawing of how Augustodunum might have looked like. 

<http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-autun-augustodunum-descriptif-de-la-ville.jpg> http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-autun-augustodunum-descriptif-de-la-ville.jpg

Map of Bibracte with the grey areas indicating the inhabited areas. 

<http://chateauchinon.chez-alice.fr/img/Histoire/Pl_OppidumBibracte.jpg> http://chateauchinon.chez-alice.fr/img/Histoire/Pl_OppidumBibracte.jpg

Drawing of the Gallo-Roman villas, probably the largest buildings found in Bibracte. 

<http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-bibracte-maisons-du-parc-aux-chevaux.jpg> http://bindusara.free.fr/web/geo2/france-bibracte-maisons-du-parc-aux-chevaux.jpg

Ergo, HPB â.






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