Theos-Talk Archives (January 2012 Message tt00055)

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Thank you kindly M.Sufilight,

With all reverence and respect. 
Very interesting but quit sad.
 
After reading all of your last posting, it seems that much of your world is in conflict. Human social order is going through its usual growing pains and the inner Sanctum Sanatoriums of it's many organisations are no different to our past, or our future. 
 
The oppression of the freethinker will always exist.  Helena Petrovna Blavatsky (HPB) knew this.

Please forgive me,  but surly the teachings of HPB were of those core principles for spiritual awakening and the truth of this, our human condition.  In hope that others, like herself would follow the example and reveal their inner peace. There is not a dogma in the world that can provide such a condition because each individual must find their path.  All paths being different,   HPB would only offer advice and guidance when the correct question was posed.
  
If HPB were alive today (perhaps she is ???) how would she respond to your last post. Lead by example, the example of Altruism.
Perhaps she would advise - patience is a virtue and virtue is its own reward.

M Sufilight said - they are well known to the true "Founders" and the protectors of our Society.
In this sentance I sense fear and anger. Fear and anger is not Altruism. 

A Wise man once said ? 
Change the way you look at the world and the world will change. 
 
Maybe all the bad stuff in this world is a perfect platform for Good. 
Maybe every sentient being is supposed to find inner-peace for them self in their own way.




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--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Marcus and friends
> 
> My views are:
> 
> Thank you for your reply.
> Yes. I find that the promotion of altruism - based on a clear and unevovical Absolute Non-Sectarian activity is word while fighting for.
> 
> 
> _________________
> To all the readers...
> Here is a short article which seek to show some other angles to the problem in mention, - as I see it.
> Others might have different views.
> 
> 1. --- Sects and Cults - in the New Area compared with the Theosophical Society ---
> We have during the last decades on this planet witnessed the cry go out against - all the new religious organisations on this planet - especially in the Western countries - that they all merely were Sects or worse UGLY and SINISTER Cults...
> - The cries, (often fearful mind you), often came from Christian related families or friends - who were more or less close to the perceived "victim" of a sect or a cult..
> And psychologists and various indignated, scared or afraid families (Christian or non-Christian) used the method called De-programming (ie. often kidnapping the "victim" away from the sect or cult) - so to help so-called "victims" of a given New Religious movement. This especially occurred in the 1960'ties and 1970'ties in the "Flower Power" days - when sects and cults swarmed USA and Western Europe etc. It still occúr from time to time. Later the De-programming method got abandoned almost completely - because it not seldom worsened the situation for the claimed "victim" - And instead - as a result - a method was developed which today is known as - Exit-counselling or similar. Exit-counselling is named as a pedagogical psychological method - with voluntary meetings between the claimed "victim" and his or her family or often close friends ( or similar) - on what is called neutral ground - at a place all parties agree on. At the meeting the Exit-Counsellor (or a psychologist) - ask if the "victim" would like to see a video about the Sect or Cult - and perhaps ask "victim" if he or she would like to meet one or more former members of the sect or cult in mention. And they talk and exchange views. Sometimes the "victim" is not a victim, but are happy in the cult or sect. At other times not, and at other times the "victim" see the light - and understand that the actual sect or cult - was in fact sinister. (Maybe it has paedophile leanings, or give emphasis on a fanatical messiah-craze, or deceive its members - by lying or earned money from the members savings or - operated in a secretive manner, while manipulating fear into the members - for instance about the dark brotherhood - or "100 extra reincarnations if you are not a member theories" or sin - or eternal hell or similar fobia indoctrination - and other similar stuff. There are many methods being used. These are just a few examples. --- I do hope you get my drift... - Sometimes people strangely enough are happy about something like that - and then they can hardly be called victims - unless they are given an opportunity to see the situation from various angles and decide what they themselves - think about it all.)
> 
> To much better understand the huge difference between an Absolutely Non-Sectarian organisation and - the opposite - I will not hesitate recommend reading a few books on Exit-Counselling.
> We are talking about scientific based books - not belief based books.
> Try for instance --- "Combatting Cult Mind Control", 1988, by the well-known exit-counsellor and psychologist - Steve Hassan. --- I am of course not agreeing with this author about a number of things. But the book aught to be an eye-opener to any person who are not aware of -  the huge differences - there can and do exist between a ordinary sectarian organisations on the one hand and non-sectarian ones on the other hand. We are here centrally dealing with logical thinking and Science in this book - (A Psychological Key) - not beliefs about how the world operates. This aught to be understood when reading the book. (Have any members of this forum read it? And what do you think?)
> 
> 
> 2. --- With regard to the increasing lack of membership of the Theosophical Society ---
> Taking the above paragraph of mine into account. What is clear to me is, that everytime a given individual considers membership of the Theosophical Society - a great number of them the run away, sometimes, almost screaming - because of the historical image of the Society - wellknown on Youtube, Wikipedia, in encyclopedias, and elsewhere - A sectarian image which has been generated of this organisation by prejudice and ignorance among journalists, historians, and no doubt christian in Western countries - about its VERY IMPORTANT original Non-Sectarian - aim on honest and sincere Altruism and non-sectarian Organisational structure and original Non-Sectarian Constitution. --- And in fact the same goes more or less for various other theosophical off-shoots - unless they succeed in disguising certain past historical events of the Theosophical Society or similar. (- The SPR report on "muslin and bladder", the Messiah - Star Camp failure, the Political involvements, the Paedophile cases, the Swastica prejudice, profit-machine, etc. etc.) Not, really, as I see it, an attractive organisation for well-known Professors, authors, or, leading "personalities" in society, and even so-called ordinary persons to be members of - simply because of these past events - and - the lack of a clearly promoted Absolutely Non-Sectarian stance (and for god reasons a clear Non-political one as well) - organisational speaking - and thereby with regard to sincere Altruistic promotion. - As long as various historians - for obvious reasons - have difficulties in clearly saying that the Theosophical Society is Absolutely Non-Sectarian - the Society will be dealt with accordingly - with regard to the same lack of clarity with regard to its - claimed - altruistic aims.
> 
> This bad and false image of the Theosophical Society has to be removed - if the Society and especially its members have any honest and wholehearted intentions of promoting Altruism in a Sincere and honest manner. This must be a fact.
> 
> In the early years of the Theosophical Society 1875-1891 a lot of energy went into doing an effort to remove false images of the Society and its aims. Images almost weekly, so to speak, spoon-feed by journalists or various Christians or esteemed Professors. This can be documented - one can read about it online on the Internet. (See here the main magazine The Theosophist and Lucifer from the early days of the Society's existence. http://blavatskyarchives.com/theosophypdfs/early_theosophical_publications.htm - Thanks are given to Daniel Caldwell and friends for doing the effort of having it online !!!) In the last decades no much effort seem to have been done.
> And this - lack of effort - is at the same time called proper Altruism by the members of the same Society. I wonder? Is this actually how it aught to be - when promoting non-sectarian Altruism - because true Altruism can never be sectarian or be tainted with it, --- can it?
> Would it not be better to do a wholehearted effort in eagerly - seeking to remove all these false images (of past events and intentions) about the Theosophical Society - in the eyes of ordinary outsiders and casual onlookers - that it is merely another Sect or even a Cult - having "Liberal" Convents in Adyar every year - with a strange New Age Church-sect on the Compound - celebrating a weird re-formulated "attractive" Christmas at the same time??? A sect where merely sinister activities and deceit and secrecy - is perceived by many persons to be going on? (The latest video-s on Youtube - are noted by me as an improvement, although a meagre one so far.)
> Why on earth create such a - strange odour and having it surround the Society - and call this Altruism - and even honest and sincere Altruism?
> (Allright - errare humanum est - as they say. We humans fail - and - can only do out best. Myself included.)
> 
> 3. --- A few examples on how the Theosophical Society is being put down as a sect ----
> http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Theosophical_Society.aspx (The Theosophical Society - pictured as a sect with a certain sectarian teaching)
> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/theosophy (The Theosophical Society - pictured as a sect with a certain sectarian teaching)
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophical_Society (The Theosophical Society - pictured as a sect with a certain sectarian teaching --- UNTIL I MYSELF interfered and added the aims of the old Constitution to this much visited page !!! - The theosophists themselves - apparntly did not find it important or altruistic time to do the effort.)
> And there are several other links on the Internet and elsewhere about the Theosophical Society being a sect forwarding - esoteric teachings or similar. - This false image aught to be dealt with - IN THE NAME OF ALTRUISM (!) - But that is only- one - part of the story. Then there is the lack of understanding the actual difference between a Sectarian or Cult organisation - versus - an Absolutely Non-Sectarian one. - And this also has to be dealt with - 
> 
> A  Side-note to the above paragraph:
> (Even Blavatsky the editor of the magazine the Theosophist - had her trouble in this regard in the early years of the existence of the Society - See The Key to Theosophy, p. 271-272 - 
> And I quote:
> "It is; but you must bear in mind how many powerful adversaries we have aroused ever since the formation of our Society. " ...."Intrinsically, Theosophy is the most serious movement of this age; and one, moreover, which threatens the very life of most of the time-honoured humbugs, prejudices, and social evils of the day â?? those evils which fatten and make happy the upper ten and their imitators and sycophants, the wealthy dozens of the middle classes, while they positively crush and starve out of existence the millions of the poor. Think of this, and you will easily understand the reason of such a relentless persecution by those others who, more observant and perspicacious, do see the true nature of Theosophy, and therefore dread it. "...."I do not call the enemies we have had to battle with during the first nine or ten years of the Society's existence either powerful or "dangerous"; but only those who have arisen against us in the last three or four years. And these neither speak, write nor preach against Theosophy, but work in silence and behind the backs of the foolish puppets who act as their visible marionnettes. Yet, if invisible to most of the members of our Society, they are well known to the true "Founders" and the protectors of our Society. But they must remain for certain reasons unnamed at present. "---- etc. etc. )
> 
> If you want to promote Altruism. You most often do not begin with painting the picture - of being a sect - and present it eagerly to the Journalists, the historians, the enccylopedias, other religions, and casual onlookers. Do you?
> 
> 
> All the above are of course only my humble views.
> But maybe some of the long time theosophists or other members on this forum would tell me something - I have overlooked - or could improve upon. I would gladly welcome something like that.
> I do not claim my self infallible. - I just have the hope that you as members find the above useful. And that they - actually - do something about the problems presented.
> 
> 
> 
> M. Sufilight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: marcus_a_hughes 
>   To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2012 2:03 PM
>   Subject: theos-talk Re: Has money obesity led to TS lethargy?
> 
> 
>     
>   .
> 
>   Thanks M.Sufilight,
> 
>   Sorry to read of your discontent over the politics of TS.
> 
>   Personally I have only been a member for the last few months and have no opinion. 
> 
>   Obviously Sectarianism in any organisation which hopes to assist mankinds spiritual development will led to the corruption of the original intentions toward spiritual growth. Adolf Hitler believed he was Gods messenger and the he alone was to improve mankind. The problem is ancient, all our great organisations rose to fame, became powerful, then corrupt. Corruption is fundamental to our lower human nature. It is part of the design specification for the Human Being.
> 
>   Never forget. The truth is the truth. The Buddha said, all that begins must end. 
> 
>   Honestly : Today January 2012, there are many spiritual brotherhoods struggling to survive. Rest assured that only Good can ultimately prevail. Bad by its nature must destroy its self. Fear not for these divine, default settings of mankind. 
> 
>   Secular divisions and conflict will enable the cleansing of corporate egos ����. Its all happened before. 
> 
>   Corporate politics ���. Not worth fighting for.
> 
>   .
> 
>   --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@> wrote:
>   >
>   > Good question.
>   > I can only ask the same.
>   > 
>   > 
>   > _________________
>   > Dear friends
>   > 
>   > My views are:
>   > 
>   > And then add:
>   > Change - in the universe of time - occur when time yields an impulse for change.
>   > Optional impulses are already present. And TS has changed during the last years more or less - and discussions are ongoing in TS as far as it officially has been given out, with regard to organisational change (See earlier posts here on Theos-talk). Which impulse are going to be the new central one is not visible to all interested parties. Not yet it seems.
>   > 
>   > Here are a two articles from the - major branch - the Theosophical Society - America website, whoc touches upon this issue.
>   > See my comments in the below.
>   > 
>   > Thinking Aloud: The Specialization of Theosophy --- By Eldon Tucker
>   > (The author says: "What is it that is the purpose of our Theosophical Society? The three objects--brotherhood, study of comparative religions, and investigation of the unexplained and latent--fall somewhere between the extremes of a pro-Krishnamurti anarchism where all spiritual authorities (except himself) are rejected and a dead-letter worship of the writings of Blavatsky that would make fundamentalist Christians seem liberal by comparison." ------ That is one version. There are other variations of the theme...... Then the author alter says....."If I could define Theosophy for the Theosophical Society, I'd say that it is a distinct body of esoteric doctrines derived from the Mahatmas, given to us by Blavatsky and perhaps a few other initiates".....
>   > 
>   > M. Sufilight says:
>   > ...That is a sectarian stance, and not a non-sectarian one. I hesitate on saying that this is The Theosophical Society proper as its original intentions was. - And there is more in that article speaking on behalf of the Theosophical Society - which at the same time claim - freedom of thought. Well that freedom is hampered by such teachings - on BEHALF of the Society - if I may say so. And this was not a part of the original Theosophical Society in 1875-1891 - which according to tits constitution and rules were Absolutely Non-Sectarian. - See the magazine named - the Theosophists Jan. 1891 - This is not an attack on the author behind the article. It is merely a wish and a hope that the Society returns to the original Absolutely Non-Sectarian programe given by the founders.)
>   > http://www.theosophical.org/publications/quest-magazine/1575
>   > 
>   > A Vision for Our Future - by Mo Michel
>   > (The author says: "It is about focusing on ways in which Theosophy can meet the needs of people in the 21st century." I like that....Then he writes: "The Society holds that inevitably, our actions, feelings, and thoughts affect all other beings, all life around us. We find that each of us is capable of and responsible for contributing to the benefit of the whole."
>   > 
>   > M. Sufilight says:
>   > ...That is a sectarian stance, and not a non-sectarian one. I hesitate on saying that this is The Theosophical Society proper as its original intentions was. - And there is more in that article speaking on behalf of the Theosophical Society - which at the same time claim - freedom of thought. Well that freedom is hampered by such teachings - on BEHALF of the Society - if I may say so. And this was not a part of the original Theosophical Society in 1875-1891 - which according to tits constitution and rules were Absolutely Non-Sectarian. - See the magazine named - the Theosophists Jan. 1891 - This is not an attack on the author behind the article. It is merely a wish and a hope that the Society returns to the original Absolutely Non-Sectarian programe given by the founders.)
>   > http://www.theosophical.org/membership/members-visioning
>   > 
>   > I do not mind freedom of speech - when we seek altruism in a well-meant manner in our intentions.
>   > And I welcome freedom of thought.
>   > But I reject the above sectarian idea - that one on behalf of the Society will turn the Original Programe of the Theosophical Society into something sectarian. Let each member have their own worldview - but most certainly NOT on BEHALF OF THE SOCIETY.
>   > The Theosophical Society in 1875-1891 had a programe and a constitution which was clearly Absolutely Non-Sectarian in its aim.
>   > See it here one more time: 
>   > 
>   > 1)
>   > CONSTITUTION AND RULES OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
>   > "The Theosophical Society is absolutely unsectarian"
>   > .......
>   > " No Fellow, Officer, or Council of the Theosophical Society, or of any Section or Branch thereof, shall promulgate or maintain any doctrines being that advanced, or advocated by the Society."
>   > http://www.teozofija.info/tsmembers/Rules_1890.htm
>   > 
>   > 2)
>   > [ââ?¬Å"ORIGINAL PROGRAMMEââ?¬Â? MANUSCRIPT] as given by the co-founder Blavatsky
>   > "But if the two Founders were not told what they had to do, they were distinctly instructed about what they should never do, what they had to avoid, and what the Society should never become. Church organizations, Christian and Spiritual sects were shown as the future contrasts to our Society."
>   > .......
>   > "The Founders had to exercise all their influence to oppose selfishness of any kind, by insisting upon sincere, fraternal feelings among the Membersâ�"at least outwardly; working for it to bring about a spirit of unity and harmony, the great diversity of creeds notwithstanding; expecting and demanding from the Fellows, a great mutual toleration and charity for each otherâ��s shortcomings; mutual help in the research of truths in every domainâ�"moral or physicalâ�"and even, in daily life. "
>   > .......
>   > "They had to oppose in the strongest manner possible anything approaching dogmatic faith and fanaticismâ�"belief in the infallibility of the Masters, or even in the very existence of our invisible Teachers, having to be checked from the first. On the other hand, as a great respect for the private views and creeds of every member was demanded, any Fellow criticising the faith or belief of another Fellow, hurting his feelings, or showing a reprehensible self-assertion, unasked (mutual friendly advices were a duty unless declined)â�"such a member incurred expulsion. The greatest spirit of free research untrammelled by anyone or anything, had to be encouraged."
>   > (The words by Blavatsky are of course her own. But the aim of the programe - sought by her and Olcott was like she wrote about it.)
>   > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v7/yxxxx_019.htm
>   > 
>   > 
>   > My suggestion is:
>   > Stick to the Original Programe - of being Absolutely Non-Sectarian - and - do this in the name of ALTRUISM - (Ie., The first and main object of the Society) - Promote officially - and eagerly - that the Society is Absolutely Non-Sectarian - And send this message to all other theosohical branches - and to all journalists (!) - and affilliated organisations. - And add that mistakes had been made in the past - and - non the Society is back on track. - The past - claimed problematic - events by various individuals, was due to the Society more or less drifted on to a Sectarian sand-bank and bathed in the mud like a hen laying its eegs - AND - that each individuals assumed (by journalists and historians and Christians) failings - entirely rested on the individual and not on the Society - which was Absolutely Non-Sectarian until the year 1908 or so.
>   > If you are unwilling - I ask you: Why are you not willing to eagerly promote and market the Society as being Absolutely Non-Sectarian???
>   > 
>   > 
>   > Any comments?
>   > (Silence is consent.)
>   > 
>   > 
>   > M. Sufilight
>   > 
>   > 
>   > ----- Original Message ----- 
>   > From: Hughes, Marcus 
>   > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>   > Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:57 PM
>   > Subject: RE: theos-talk Has money obesity led to TS lethargy?
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > The only true constant is change. 
>   > TS is always changing, like this universe. 
>   > 
>   > Question is how ???? 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > From: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MKR 
>   > Sent: 11 January 2012 3:38 PM 
>   > To: theos-talk 
>   > Subject: theos-talk Has money obesity led to TS lethargy? 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > Has obesity led to TS lethargy? 
>   > 
>   > When TS was launched with just two individuals, HSO and HPB, they 
>   > accomplished a lot when travel and living conditions were very difficult. 
>   > They traveled and lectured far and wide and TS grew in leaps and bounds 
>   > around the world. Looking back, we are convinced of the wisdom of the Inner 
>   > Founders in choosing both of them. (They were meat eaters and smokers. 
>   > Shocking for anyone who has a stereotype of spiritual person today.) One 
>   > problem they did not have was to deal with managing a lot of money in the 
>   > bank and lot of property to be administered. 
>   > 
>   > Lo and behold. What do we have now? Membership is going South for years 
>   > except for India. Bank balances are becoming fatter and real estate 
>   > ownership accumulating. Dues have been increased in many Sections and 
>   > continued solicitation for donations. Aging leaders who know not what is 
>   > going on in real world of communication based on Internet. Looks like 
>   > obesity has set in slowly. And obesity leads to inactivity and lethargy. 
>   > Obesity is not good for one�s health. By analogy it is true for spiritual 
>   > organizations as well. 
>   > 
>   > For years, for example we have not seen any elected officials or traveling 
>   > lecturers in my city which is the seventh largest city in the USA. One 
>   > reason may be lodge does not have money or property to attract elected 
>   > officials. 
>   > 
>   > Recently we were thrilled to see Professor Menon�s lecture on Theosophy and 
>   > Science put up on Youtube for the world to see. We heard that other 
>   > lectures were also videoed but yet to see any of them on Youtube. By the 
>   > way, Youtube is free. Does not cost a penny other than upload time and 
>   > resources. No one knows what is going on. 
>   > 
>   > The GC meeting was held on December 25. Members know nothing about what was 
>   > discussed and what decisions were taken. Neither there is any news from 
>   > Adyar nor from the Sections on the meeting. Usually months after the 
>   > meeting, few crumbs are reported in print media. Why Internet is not used 
>   > to inform members on a timely basis on key issues discussed and decisions 
>   > taken? 
>   > 
>   > For many members who have been around and very active for years, seeing all 
>   > this is very painful. If this trend continues, it may be time for the 
>   > traditional organizational model to change. Internet is the most powerful 
>   > change agent we have today and its reach has affected every aspect of 
>   > Humanity. More is yet to come. 
>   > 
>   > Any feedback??? 
>   > 
>   > MKR 
>   > 
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>   > 
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