Re: theos-talk the Christian Saviour, like Krishna
Oct 29, 2011 05:07 AM
by M. Sufilight
Dear Duane and friends
My views are:
I do appreciate your answer. And it give me the oppotunity to ask you a few questions, which you did not answer about a year ago.
I am writing the below so to be of service to us all, and so to promote altruism.
Duane wrote:
"One of the greatest stumbling blocks to many who have studied HPBâs work is what they see as Alice Bailey personalizing the idea of Christ. If you take into account that DK himself stated that he deliberately gave the ancient wisdom teachings a Christianized emphasesfor a broader audience here in the west it will explain much. "
M. Sufilight says:
Where did D.K. or Alice A. Bailey clearly said the above???
(Please provide a quote. You avoided doing that the last time you told me and others this.)
Another thing is if the Psychological Key only was meant to be for the Western mind-set - it must be in clear contradiction to the words given by Blavatsky in the Secret Doctrine (Volume I, page xxxviii ) about it being given to the whole world - and - giving irrefutable proof on Gupta-Vidya (Atma-Vidya). The science of Atma-Vidya or Gupta-Vidya (visdom of the Self) seems totally absent in the book A Treatise on Cosmic Fire. With regard to the upper-triangle Parabrahm, SPACE, Mula-prakriti, the eager Seeker are, as far as I see it, only referred to a reference in the 3 edition of the Secret Doctrine published in 1893 by Annie Besant - after Blavatsky died. An edition filled with thousands of alterations to the Secret Doctrine. A book Alice A. Bailey's friend named Master D.K. calims was largely dictaed by him to Blavatsky in clear opposition to the documented papers we have about the fact that Master Morya and KH was behind the book together with Blavatsky who herself read the info in the Akasha, using almost no books when writing the book. The teachings on the upper-triangle are of primary importance when dealing with givning irrefutable proof of the science on Gupta-Vidya (Atma-Vidya).
Please tell me if I am wrong in the above - and - do provide clear reference to back your views. Duane?
Duane wrote:
"Did AAB fuse Esoteric Christianity with Esoteric Buddhism? This audacious undertaking could only be done by a Master of the Wisdom who could bypass the dogmas and historical baggage both religions bring and see the same esoteric truths that are be found in all religious traditions and emanating from the same One Source of spiritual life. For those theosophical students who have been told by erroneous sources that AAB has overly personified the principal of Love or Christ please read carefully the next passage and quote by AAB."
M. Sufilight says:
Yes. This is a good question!!!
I do mean it.. I have also considered it. It is important to have in mind that the answer to this question can be viewed from quite a number of angles.
Here is shortly formulated my take on it. It requires however a longer answer.
A CHRISTIANIZING OF THE ESOTERIC TEACHINGS
There is no doubt in my mind, that the Alice A. Bailey books when viewed as a whole contains a Christianizing of the Esoteric Buddhism. And a Christianizing, which distorts the teachings given in Esoteric Buddhism. I have given several reference on why it is so.
Also in recent post here at Theos-talk. The scholar and theosophical seeker David Reigle has mentioned that the 5 volumes on Esoteric Psychology clearly in part are based on the exoteric version of the Kalachakra Tantra. (The esoteric version is not officially known today.) And this view by David Reigle is important. I say this although I do not support this view as much as he does - at least when we talk about the esoteric version of the Kalachakra Tantra. See this recent video named "DK, Kalachakra, and Shambhala - Talk by David Reigle at the University of the Seven Rays" with David Reigle on Youtube and articles on his website on the Kalachakra Tantra. It is known that Blavatsky said that - the ESOTERIC - version of the Kalachakra Tantra with a very very ancient special commentary and glossary attacthed to it - was the texts she based her book the Secret Doctrine upon. /See this here: "THE SECRET BOOKS OF âLAM-RIMâ AND DZYAN", Blavatsky Collected Writings, Volume 14 Page 422).
It is however also clear that when you Christianize and distort the teachings on esoteric Buddhism - and thereby the visdom teachings of ages past - that you are opposing the teachings given by Master Morya and KH, as well as Blavatsky. (See Mahatma Letter no 10, 55 and Extract from H.P.B.'s E.S.T.S. Instruction No. I)
Is this not the truth, Duane ??? Any Alice A. Bailey follower???
Mahatma Letter 55:
"For the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic help from the Dugpas â in Bhootan and the Vatican! "
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-55.htm
H. P. Blavatsky wrote in the following in an Extract from H.P.B.'s
"E.S.T.S. Instruction No. I":
"By pandering to the prejudices of people, and especially by adopting the false
ideas of a personal God and a personal, carnalized Saviour, as the groundwork of
their teaching, the leaders of this "swindle" (for such it is) are endeavoring
to draw men to them and in particular to turn Theosophists from the true path."
.......
"Stealing from us our esoteric Sanskrit terms, our facts"......."and even our motto, "There is No Religion Higher than Truth," this
self-styled illuminator is sure to prepare thousands of enemies to Theosophy"
.......
Under these circumstances, it is the duty of all members of the E. S. in America
to do their utmost to unmask such movements, for nothing is more dangerous to
Esoteric Truth than the garbled and distorted versions disfigured to suit the
prejudices and tastes of men in general. "
(http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/hpbes1extract.htm )
_______
A FEW PSYCHOLOGICAL KEYs TO HOW THE ESOTERIC TRADITION OPERATES
Another angle. Here are a few words which I wrote in a recent post here at Theos-talk forum.
"The use of ideas, FOR INSTANCE BOOKS and WRITTEN MATERIAL of ALL sorts is - perhaps sometimes primarily - forwarded so to shape a man or woman morally speaking, not necessarily to support a so-called system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in which - what I call - the Wisdom Tradition is "living'", and not just the perpetuations of ideas and movements - LIKE FOR INSTANCE a New Age group, a theosophical group, or esoteric group etc. etc. or their many offshoot branches. This seems important to understand and know about. "
.......
"I, don't plan to form an organization with somebody at the top and others at the bottom collecting money or wearing funny clothes, badges, ties, or converting people to a sect or similar. I view the altruistic wisdom tradition I know of not as an ideology that molds people to the right way of belief or action, but as an art or science that can exert a beneficial influence on individuals or societies, in accordance with the needs of those individuals and societies.
Instead of saying that the altruistic wisdom tradition I know of is a body of thought in which you believe certain things and don't believe other things, I say that the the altruistic wisdom experience has to be provoked in a person. Once provoked, it becomes his or her own property, rather as a person masters an art."
----- Therefore, if the above by me has some merit, which I think it has, we can go and say that the Alice A. Bailey books and the Lucis Trust - resulting in the later "emanations" of more or less independant Alice A. Bailey groups - was given by a group of initiates so to, as I wrote - SHAPE "a man or woman morally speaking, not necessarily to support a so-called system - which is viewed in a limited manner".
If this is true, it is interesting to centemplate. Is it not?
Despite this, it is also important to understand, that the teachings on esoteric Buddhism was Christianized and distorted. No doubt seem to be raised there.
Do you have doubt about this Duane? Any Alice A. Bailey follower?
________
Yet another angle.
All the above easily remind us about what happened when Buddha arrived. H. P. Blavatsky writes about these views in her article "THE MYSTERY OF BUDDHA" (BCW, vol. XIV, p. 388-399). The Brahmin's opposed Buddha. They said that he distorted the teachings. And the fact was that a number of persons and people misunderstood them, because Buddha was a bit careless (or because teachings cannot always be understood immediately by all). Yet, Budhha "failed to keep within the prescribed limits" as Blavatsky puts it. That was why Shankaracharya incarnated a few years later and gave the teachings on Adawiata Vedanta, says Blavatsky. And this might be the truth.
Interestingly, this can be said to be the same thing that happens with regard to the teachings given by Blavatsky in the non-sectarian and non-political Theosophical Society 1875-1891. - The Christians did not understand her. Alice A. Bailey writes her books - and many Christians join these teachings - although they are connected with Blavatsky's. Other groups and books could be mentioned doing the same as the Alice A. Bailey books with regard to helping the Christians understand their bigotry in the last 50 years.
Such a view or conclusion is as I see it however only a half-truth. Because when you distort the teachings by Christianizing them - and - omit clarifying them - opposed to what Shankaracharya in fact did because he clairified them, --- you soon run into problems. And when you on top of that have a strange relationship with the Psychological Key, which should give irrefutable proof on Atma-Vidya --- and instead of that gives a Psychological Key, which Christianize and distort Blavatsky's teachings and thereby also esoteric Buddhism --- I find the whole affair quite problematic. Not to mention the political and sectarian angle of it all. A sectarian angle by the Lucis Trust in clear oppostion to the Psychological Key of the Secret Doctrine, also known as the Visdom Teachings of all ages past (!!!)
CONCLUSION
Bottom-line, as I see it, there was no Psychological Key in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire givning irrefutable proof on the science of Atma-Vidya, - it burned away and became smoke. Either the program was changed by the Masters or a Western Christian-related and Fremmasonry-related groups was behind it all. I tend to support the last version, and, I have sought to prove it many times here at Theos-talk by giving a number of reference by compartive studying. And comparative studying, has not been given by many Alice A. Bailey followers so to oppose this view and prove me wrong. Some are however doing an effort. And I thank them for that, because it might be helpful for us all with regard to the promotion of altruism and compassion --- and escpecially psychological change - instead of political support or what I call atavistic Great Invocation doctrines.
The Psychological Key to the Secret Doctrine is, as I see it, the doctrine on Mindfulness - Abhidamma in its esoteric versions - and the same and MORE which most likley can be found in the esoteric Kalachakra Tantra with the ancient commentaries and glossary, which nobody officially know about these days. This doctrine can at least in part also be found in esoteric Raja Yoga and esoteric Buddhism - and - today in the science known as Psychology. When the Science of Psychology add the science of Subtle Mind Control - the real Psychological Key will be found - especially when viewed esoterically. The Psychological Key might contain further Psychological Keys. These are my views on the matter.
- When one compare the Alice A. Bailey book "Letters on Occult Meditation" with the esoteric teachings on Abhidamma vital clues might be found. And also some parts of the volumes of Esoteric Psychology. But only parts thereof. The teachings given by Alice A. Bailey can only be called very condensed and only reach the lower levels of the esoteric teachings in the Dharma Wheels with regard to be givning a Psychological Key to the Secret Doctrine. Yet they might be helpful, if the readers are able to shake of the Christianized distortions. - It should also be said, that the esoteric teachings on Psychology are complex - and - that it will require many books to cover such a teaching clearly and adequately. And in this respect Alice A. Bailey's book did an small effort - but not a multi-cultural one - and - not one covering vital aspect of the teachings on esoteric Psychology. One the vital ones lacking as far as I am concerned was and is the science on Subtle Mind Control. Another was and is the esoteric science on Mindfulness, with regard to Time-transcendence and Atma-Vidya, (Eckhart Tolle is teaching this today). Instead we find a teaching very much similar to the 1. Dharma Wheel, the lowest of the 3-4 Dharma Wheels within Buddhism, - and on top of that distorted and Christianized.
These are my views. What do you think? Duane?
All the above are of course just my views. I do not claim myself infallible as a "pope" or similar
I do hope that at least some of it will be useful for something altruistic and good.
___________
More follows....
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Duane Carpenter
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: theos-talk the Christian Saviour, like Krishna
One of the greatest stumbling blocks to many who have studied HPBâs work is what they see as Alice Bailey personalizing the idea of Christ. If you take into account that DK himself stated that he deliberately gave the ancient wisdom teachings a Christianized emphasesfor a broader audience here in the west it will explain much. Did AAB fuse Esoteric Christianity with Esoteric Buddhism? This audacious undertaking could only be done by a Master of the Wisdom who could bypass the dogmas and historical baggage both religions bring and see the same esoteric truths that are be found in all religious traditions and emanating from the same One Source of spiritual life. For those theosophical students who have been told by erroneous sources that AAB has overly personified the principal of Love or Christ please read carefully the next passage and quote by AAB.
âThere have always been those in every land who developed and expressed the Christ consciousness; this is loving understanding and intelligent, living service, no matter by what words or terminology they expressed the tremendous spiritual event of which they were aware. â
Today, as a result of a spiritual awakening which dates from 1625 A.D., and which laid the emphasis upon a wider, general education and upon a revolt from the imposition of clerical authority, the radiation from the world of souls has greatly intensified and the Kingdom of God is becoming a corporate part of the outer world expression, and this for the first time in the long, long history of humanity.
The effect of this radiation or magnetic aura is now so extensive that we need no longer talk in terms of bringing in the kingdom or of its manifestation on Earth. It is already manifesting, and its aura is co-mingled with the mental, astral and etheric auras of mankind. Recognition only is required, but (and this is a factor to be noted) recognition is being withheld until the kingdom of souls can be safeguarded from the narrow claims of any church, religion or organization; many will claim (as they have ever done) that admittance into the Kingdom of God is to be found through their particular reparative group. The Kingdom of God is not Christian, or Buddhist, or to be found focused in any world religion or esoteric organization. It is simply and solely what it claims to be: a vast and integrated group of soul-infused persons, radiating [Page 408] love and spiritual intention, motivated by goodwill...â
For all of the endless debates about Bailey vs. HPB, Bailey clearly puts the idea of the Bodhisattva or Cosmic Christ as an impersonal deity or power that expresses both intelligence and Love. In fact, if you fully comprehend the thrust of Alice Baileyâs work, you will see that the study of Fohat-Will or the First Ray of abstraction and power was at the very top of the list in the order of importance of all the subjects that he (DK) was trying to convey to humanity. A Treatise on Cosmic Fire is a manual for those advanced disciples in preparation for initiation along the First Ray line hence there is a natural correlation between Cosmic Fire and the Secret Doctrine and it is not uncommon to see both treatise used as resource material simultaneously by advanced groups. Most students of theosophy who think they are advanced unfortunately do not study either treatise.
The aspirant and probationers are baffled by the depth and profundity of both treatises but have not developed the wisdom to remain silent until they know more. True disciples recognize the immense opportunity that the works of HPB and AAB offer and begin creating analogies, correspondences and links between the two.
Those theosophist who claim each individual person must do their own inner work and no one can come to save them are entirly correct.
The question I have for my reader is it possible that an avatar or master along any one of the 7 Rays could work on both levels simultaniously, both as an individual person who is simultaniously a Cosmic Principal?. If this is true might it exsplain some of the apparent inconsitencies and paradoxes we are discussing here? These two concepts may not be mutual exclusive but a part of One Life which seen in all its composite parts - simultaniously, not an easy thing to recognize or register if the intuition is not highly developed.
Excerpts from HPB vs AAB by Duane Carpenter
See the entire commentary attached :
From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@ej1pbAPfA0TGVsNflFbVFHd--Q_ZqdG4tQwf6IJlV-w9KNd2Wv2QBIW28bWPQ-JCe6QMxjtHZkl93R1f-DHp_P6dFMpO.yahoo.invalid>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk the Christian Saviour, like Krishna
Did she actually - quote - heavily fromn it? How heavily?
I find that she at various places correct misleading content in it. Did she not?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@s1IDtPIx5Sc0X6Ap5wpjmV-5IT11f5icwOUA-MqztVA3GSEddLrU20ff2PXJNWoQf7g6SnYhcbNdojo7bfsM9uw1YA.yahoo.invalid
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: theos-talk the Christian Saviour, like Krishna
Morten,
Also the Anaclypsis is also a work that Blavatsky heavily qoutes from and listed as a "Q" resource, bot h the Anaclypsis and The World Sixteen Crucified Saviors are free downloads on Google Books.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@ej1pbAPfA0TGVsNflFbVFHd--Q_ZqdG4tQwf6IJlV-w9KNd2Wv2QBIW28bWPQ-JCe6QMxjtHZkl93R1f-DHp_P6dFMpO.yahoo.invalid>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 4:24:09 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk the Christian Saviour, like Krishna
The following might also be good to know about...
The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World%27s_Sixteen_Crucified_Saviors
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@s1IDtPIx5Sc0X6Ap5wpjmV-5IT11f5icwOUA-MqztVA3GSEddLrU20ff2PXJNWoQf7g6SnYhcbNdojo7bfsM9uw1YA.yahoo.invalid
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: theos-talk the Christian Saviour, like Krishna
Jeremy and all,
A certain book that Blavatsky also mentioned "The Worlds Sixteen Crucified Saviors or Christianity before Christ" by Kersey Graves 1879, Boston: Colby and Rich Publishers, No. 9 Montgomery Place, 384 pages. it is a survey of ancient history of religion of cultures dessertates upon the "Saviour" fi gures of pre-christion history. Madame Blavastky mentions as a "Q" source respective to her readings.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Condick" < jpcondick2011@sCwuh7F_Yz9C7A_YYWCEIwRFBBHy6h8Pq11leoqJhxf2RN099CT2L5oa4qmIl14mXwwospDzqPepSRpqmESUPw.yahoo.invalid >
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 2:31:15 PM
Subject: theos-talk the Christian Saviour, like Krishna
HPB first key work proclaimed the Christ the Christian saviour and Christos, AAB second key work expanded somewhat, the Christ which is a rank of office of the head of hierarchy, and not the so called Christian son of a personal god, Jehovah like, of the church fathers so worshiped and personalised by the Roman Catholics also. This is often greatly misunderstood. But it is part of our teachings. JPC.
"The personal God of orthodox Theism perceives, thinks, and is affected by emotion; he repents and feels "fierce anger." SD1 2.
"Christian theology has evolved its self-created human and personal God" SD1 613.
"The Church enforces belief in a personal god and a personal devil, while Occultism shows the fallacy of such a belief." SD2 475.
"This Entity, Whom we call the solar Logos, is in no sense the same as the personal God of the Christian, who is no more nor less than man himself, expanded into a being of awful power, and subject to the virtues and vices of man himself." TCF 239.
"On the other hand, regarded in the light of the LOGOS, the Christian Saviour, like Krishna, whether as man or logos, may be said to have saved those who believed in the secret teachings from "eternal death," to have conquered the Kingdom of Darkness, or Hell, as every Initiate does. This in the human, terrestrial form of the Initiates, and also because the logos is Christos, that principle of our inner nature which develops in us into the Spiritual Ego -- the Higher-Self -- being formed of the indissoluble union of Buddhi (the sixth) and the spiritual efflorescence of Manas" SD2 230.
"those whom the Christian Saviour addressed as ïthe generation of vipers". CW X
"Like Buddha and Jesus, Apollonius was the uncompromising enemy of all outward show of piety, all display of useless religious ceremonies and hypocrisy. If, like the Christian Saviour, the sage of Tyana had by preference sought the companionship of the poor and humble"... IU2 341.
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