Theos-Talk Archives (October 2011 Message tt00093)

Dear Michael and friends

My views are:

Thank you for answering. All persons are to me my friends and you too. How they relate to me are of course their choice.

Michael wrote:
*** MY friend we are splitting hairs. 
I do not accuse HPB of any wrong motive, and I apologize for coming across as negative toward her work, which I admire.

I simply am not willing to spend hours with quotes on these issues. 

This conversation is dubious in its value.

I agree that politics is not the main road forward for humanity."

M. Sufilight says:
I agree entirely with you on these views.
So when politics is not the main road, and when we agree upon that no doctrinas aught to be taught on behalf of the members in a non-Sectarian Society, and when we agree on that each member of such a non-Sectarian Society are free to involve themselves with politics - if and only if such an involvement - is not with regard to involving the Society in political disputes or injuring the Society - then I find myself in agreement with your views.
If not, I would like to know where we differ, and of course also why. Because this might be helpful to us all and to the readers of our exchanges.

Michael wrote:
"You have little regard for most leaders of history I have named. Probably you have not read what I have read of them, nor do you have my karmic past in that realm. 
It is always true that if one has a hammer, everything tends to look like a nail, ie, that tool is the one most used. "

"I am not suggesting any branch of Theosophy be actively engage in politics. 
I am suggesting that it entirely appropriate that individual members be involved in running for office, advocating policy they feel benefits evolution of the Race. This not suggested by the blanker statements about politics. 
For instance, currently there are massive protests against the criminal activities of the Bankers in Greece, and the USA. 
Are you suggesting this is inappropriate, that people ought to sit still while all the wealth of the world is stolen and their children impoverished?"

M. Sufilight says:
See my comment in the above and the following.

I am sorry if I came across as having only little regard for most leaders of history. I do find us all to very very important. But, it is true to say I do not have high regards for politics and call them low-ethics like Blavatsky did in one of her papers. I find it a pitty and sad when a person has to spend his or her life as a Walking and talking LIE. (Because of party-line-politics, the prevalent use of Spin, and human-made laws - pretending to operate as the Law of Karma. At an ideology not openly and clearly based on a non-sectarian approach to altruism and non-sectarian thinking - without any real thought on how to avoid subtle Mind Control.) It must in fact be terrible in a certain sense, do you not think so?

About what is appropriate or not.
Each individual member of a Society like the Original Theosophical Society given in 1875-1891 aught to decide, what they themselves do.
The Theosophical Society given in 1875-1891 did for instance not encourage voilating the laws in the country where people are living.
To better understand where I am: See ARTICLE XIII, 1, 2 and especially 3 --- in CONSTITUTION AND RULES OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in 1890 --- http://www.teozofija.info/tsmembers/Rules_1890.htm --- Or perhaps better - I invite you to join the forum "Theos-talk-Heart" --- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk-heart -.

If you disagree with the content of the above 1890 Constitution and Rules of The Theosophical Society, I would be happy to know why.
Because this is in the main what I seek to promote together with members of a Society seeking to promote altruism. And not any set of books by one single author - and - neither any involvement or affiliation of such a Society with politics to the (not unlikely) detriment of the cause of compassion. (Some arrive from the Middle East, som from a Western country, some from India and elsewhere.)
Each member are fully entitled to have his or her own views - no subtle Mind Control, but a free search for the promotion of altruism between the members and of course society in general. All persons were invited if they just were in sympathy with the aim of altruism anf the promulgating of altruism and the non-sectarian Constitution and Rules of the Society.

THE NEW AGE CONSUMER MARKET
I see them in front of my eyes all over the little planet called Earth. The New Age consumer market with its large crowds of Guru's with pearls around the neck, Clairvoyant Parapsychologists who get second sight in Double-colors after a large drink of Bourbon or similar, --- the channeling medium from the Andromeda galaxy who has an "special" UFO in the back-garden, --- the Turkic Soothsayer with the Quran hidden in her inner pocket, --- Hare Krishna hairs banging on the drums, --- Better-knowing so-called Real Theosophists at various Convents, --- New Age Mormons in suits with their "Gucci" ties, --- the Buddhist on the heath of central 

England or in France - a master in overtone singing by the use of his skilled uvula, --- Esotericists awaiting the Reappearance of the Christ which already is delayed, --- the Astrologer who efficiently prints the truth about the future from his new computerprogram, --- Tantrics with unrest between their legs, --- Alternative Healers who get lost in their flower-medicine or get entangled in Pendulum-Oscillations, --- the Spiritist medium who is an expert in contact with the deceased, but instead catch a weird Church-yard Ghost. And all the rest more or less claiming to be the real thing. (smile.)

--- They are all of them or a great number of them saying, that they are sweet and nice people and that THEIR sect is THE non-sectarian one. And they all of them are shouting: Me, me, me....pick me, pick me, pick me....no me, I am better...Now, now don't push. Now, please make some room...Aaaaarrrgh...move your foot from my face...etc. etc. (smile.) Or Money, money, money, ........(smile.)
 
If all of them are right and truly know about Altruism as such, why do they then split themselves up into so many different groups?
The truth is - not all of them can be right and know about the meaning of life on a equal level of insight and visdom. So who is right?
 
A very very crucial question is it not???
 
A NON-SECTARIAN ORGANISATION IS CLAIMED TO BE BETTER IN MANY RESPECTS
And truly I tell you - let those who are honest and genuine and have a good conscience, be willing to arrive at a mutual meeting with the aim of establishing a altruistic-centered - non-sectarian, non-bigotry, philosophical organisation based on altruism....This, - including all of the above mentioned and the rest within the religious market and the New Age market - including all the theosophical branches, esoteric branches and various offshoots etc. - and the theosophical ("catholic") mother organisation as well. - Where nobody promotes any doctrinas on behalf of others - en free mutual exchange aiming for altruism.

And let them and all of us TOGETHER in the name of mutual true compassion (not false) seek out the truth about the meaning of life and how to promote compassion. Comparative studying will of course be important in this regard. Because it is fellowship and togetherness which promotes unselfishness and altruism and all good things. It is not division between people which nurtures the good in society. Togetherness is strength, the oppostie is weak, and indded sectarian. But, some like to gather and others they scatters.
 
What do you my dear readers think?


Michael wrote:
"Politics aims to change systems for the benefit of people; Theosophy aims to change people themselves for the long-term benefit of humanity itself."

How exactly is this changing of people going to happen?
Please list perhaps 5 practical ways that you might recommend. "

M. Sufilight says:
The main aims of the The Theosophical Society given in 1875-1891 - I have given in the link in the above on the Constitution.
It is by these aims the individual together of course with the members find the path - practical - path forward with regard the promotion of altruism.
Just like you meet other persons in life. The big difference is that at such a Society as The Theosophical Society given in 1875-1891 - you are not conditioned like you are in a sect. And in such a Society you will meet people from a wide range of sects or with their very own sectarian beliefs, or Protean Selves. I think I have sort of pictured the idea in the above paragraphs. --- Let each person do what they find to be important, but let them never go against the aim of altruism - and the aims of the Society in their ordinary life. And remember these aims of the Society are only guidelines - nobody is expected to suddenly be completely perfectly altruistic in behavior just like that  - only that they seek and strive to be altruistic. --- As said by others: Handsome is as handsome does. Each individual learn from the other. There are many altruistic persons in various countries - who are not members of any religious groups or theosophical group. Yet they do what their heart tell them to do. The benefit one get from joining such a group as the one I am talking about is - that you are able to meet a whole wide range of various religious people - with the most different thought-patterns and views upon altruism and the meaning of life - all of them aiming at the same namely altruism and how to promote it. - Why should they play hide and seek in their respective sects, (while they behind closed doors and curtains whispers: But that sect over there...Be warned!...they are a dangerous lot...etc.)? They can of course continue to be members of their sects, but why not also at least meet and exchange and promote altruism together?


5 PRACTICAL WAYS
5 practical ways - you say. It certain must depend on where you begin and who you are. Do you not think so.
And since altruism seem to be a rare thing on this kind of planet - it is not that likely that it is something that will be easy to get hold on. I think most people will agree upon that. But, even so this is the only and most central thing in our lifes, is it not? - That is why it is so important to us - because we do not think or believe: that the universe is merely consisting of fortuitous concurrence of atoms. We somehow know better, that is why we are interested in the whole affair. Right?

The following are some views I have. I have tons of them, these are just a few. Other readers have other helpful views. Whether they are helpful must as I see it clearly depend upon who receives them.
I wrote them down, because I find that they might be heloful to the readers and to answer your questions - better - with regard to reform in the human heart of compassion or its lack thereof. Here we go...
1) I hold it to be true, that there cannot be any altruism without knowledge or wisdom. And not wisdom without altruism.
2) Therefore seek knowledge and wisdom. Have you ever seen an altruistic person who has no brain?
It is when you have removed all your ignorance, and even prejudices, about the possibilities in life, you really begin to understand how ignorant you are. And what Wisdom really truly is. And whether it exists.
3) Without an effort, you will get nowhere. At least in most cases.
4) Without being persistent, you will neither get far. Why give up, when altruism is important?
5) Let us seek to avoid being feverishly about altruism its promotion and the search for it, because that does not seem to help. At least in most cases.
6) Let us seek to be patient, because impatience does not seem to help much. At least in most cases.
As one Master is alleged to have said: "Try not to be hasty, respected Sir. The world was not made in a day; nor has the tail of the yak developed in one year. Let evolution take its course naturally - lest we make it deviate and produce monsters by presuming to guide it."
7) Bear your sufferings the best you can. - Our duty is to drink without a murmur to the last drop, whatever contents the cup of life may have in store for us, to pluck the roses of life only for the fragrance they may shed on others, and to be ourselves content but with the thorns, if that fragrance cannot be enjoyed without depriving some one else of it. This is altruism. At least in most cases.
8) We can only do our best, and that will have to suffice. No compassionate person or spiritual entity would be bullying anyone for doing their best. This is plain and simple logic.
9) Seek to improve yourself with regard to altruism.
10) Do not merely seek believe anything or anyone. Seek to know the truth and relativity.
11) Do not think that your are inferior or superior. All and everything is important.

12) The Golden Rule: Seek to do unto others, as you would like them to do unto you.
13) There will never be any real reform in any persons human heart and level of compassion without an understanding of the science on subtle Mind Control - what the actual difference between a sectarian organisation and non-sectarian organisation really is and can be. - I am saying: This is one of the  Psychological Keys to what Blavatsky called the Secret Doctrine.
14) There might be some help gained by considering, that those views offered - could be helpful to some persons with regard evaluate whether the receivers are ignorant or not - depending on whether they find the views attractive or not - and  - to determine whether they are suitable or not with regard to other kinds of activity.
15) If you seek reform in the human heart and knowledge about altruism and how to promote it, when what you really need is information or rest from pressures, you will get none of these things. If you really know what you want, you should  go and get it.
16) The use of ideas, FOR INSTANCE BOOKS and WRITTEN MATERIAL of ALL sorts is - perhaps sometimes primarily - forwarded so to shape a man or woman morally speaking, not necessarily to support a so-called system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in which - what I call - the Wisdom Tradition is "living'", and not just the perpetuations of ideas and movements - LIKE FOR INSTANCE a New Age group, a theosophical group, or esoteric group etc. etc. or their many offshoot branches. This seems important to understand and know about. 
17) I, don't plan to form an organization with somebody at the top and others at the bottom collecting money or wearing funny clothes, badges, ties, or converting people to a sect or similar. I view the altruistic wisdom tradition I know of not as an ideology that molds people to the right way of belief or action, but as an art or science that can exert a beneficial influence on individuals or societies, in accordance with the needs of those individuals and societies.
Instead of saying that the altruistic wisdom tradition I know of is a body of thought in which you believe certain things and don't believe other things, I say that the the altruistic wisdom experience has to be provoked in a person. Once provoked, it becomes his or her own property, rather as a person masters an art.
18) People make a hat out of a pair of shoes and then wonder why you ask them why they are not walking on their heads. (proverb)
19) The best player of the game, is the Watcher, ask it. (proverb)
20) Learn how to meditate or become a better clairvoyant.
21) To se reform of the human heart in silence is another method.

But these are only my views - sectarian - as they are. Within a such a Society I am considering, other members are able to forward their views - sectarian or not. Altruism has to be strived for as the only requirement. No books (or New Age books or esoteric books etc.) are being called primary teaching books at such a place. Other New Agers at such a place might have tons of other methods or practical methods so to help reform in the human heart and thereby altruism to be promoted.

Is that okay?

Michael wrote:
"Whether the physical man be under the rule of an empire or a republic, concerns only the man of matter."
This is a stance I cannot support. Theosophy itself nor its publications could not be spread without the freedom to do so, which requires freedom and rights within the body politics, which requires MEN to advocate laws forbidding tyranny, armies to defend against tyrant nations, including against those of the "insane dreams of Socialism and Communism, which if abhors -as both are but disguised conspirations of brutal force and sluggishness against honest labour".

Man must evolve with matter. Without freedom in that matter how is he to evolve. ?????

M. Sufilight says:
Aaah. But, you misunderstand the sentence. It does not imply that one as an ernest promoter of altruism should not aim for helping us all, and seek to establish social uplift. Just not on behalf of the Soceity making it a sectarian activitiy. It merely implies as stated, that It "concerns only the man of matter". You are as I see it reading into it, that it should not concern those who are altruistic. But that is of course wrong. It means: It does not wrry does who are spiritually inclined, only the man of matter. Okay?
(Maybe those readers who are better at English will be able to explain this better than I have.)

Further, I sense you want human-made laws created so to keep what you call tyrannies down. But - the eye is in the beholder - as they say. What gives you the right to decide what laws should be made and what actions should be taken? - (Blavatsky said wisely: "Foolish is the gardener who seeks to weed his flower-bed of poisonous plants by cutting them off from the surface of the soil, instead of tearing them out by the roots. 

No lasting political reform can be ever achieved with the same selfish men at the head of affairs as of old.") - Reform in the human heart is of primary importance (!) - Why replace a tyran with another? - And how can you be sure that you avoid doing this? - Just look at what is happening right now on the planet. And who actually decides whether it is a good idea to use legislation internationally so to replace on kind of leadership in one country with another kind - based on a totally different mindset - which the population in the given country is not prepared to receive? - To some of us Seekers after Altruism and Wisdom, there is also a law called the Law of Karma. And this is not mand-made on a piece of paper. And it cannot be deleted or annulled. It does not waver and is not mocked. It is always just and it never ever fails. Let those who reject it do so and let those who has it as a hypothesis do so. But, I will say they have - philosophically speaking - difficulties in providing a better explanation on how the universe operates. And that is also why the so-called Golden Rule I mentioned in the above are to be found in almost all cultures on globe - and - is widely accepted by almost any human being as sane and good. - I find it unwise to become a Walking LIE most of my life - if I aim at protecting compassion and promoting it. No wise men on the planet through the ages has ever promoted politics. They have promoted the Golden Rule instead (!) If you are attracted to politics more than you are attracted to the Golde Rule, so be it. Do you call politicians wise men or women?

Now I do not hope I have been splitting hairs. I have merely sought to give you an answer so to be of service to you - and - of course also to the readers.


All the above are of course just my views. I do not claim myself infallible as a "pope" or similar
I do hope that at least some of it will be useful for something altruistic and good.

M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: libertyson11 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:10 PM
  Subject: Re: theos-talk RE; politics and various Quests of the ION


    

  *** MY friend we are splitting hairs. 
  I do not accuse HPB of any wrong motive, and I apologize for coming across as negative toward her work, which I admire.

  I simply am not willing to spend hours with quotes on these issues. 

  This conversation is dubious in its value. 

  I agree that politics is not the main road forward for humanity.

  You have little regard for most leaders of history I have named. Probably you have not read what I have read of them, nor do you have my karmic past in that realm. 
  It is always true that if one has a hammer, everything tends to look like a nail, ie, that tool is the one most used. 

  I am not suggesting any branch of Theosophy be actively engage in politics. 
  I am suggesting that it entirely appropriate that individual members be involved in running for office, advocating policy they feel benefits evolution of the Race. This not suggested by the blanker statements about politics. 
  For instance, currently there are massive protests against the criminal activities of the Bankers in Greece, and the USA. 
  Are you suggesting this is inappropriate, that people ought to sit still while all the wealth of the world is stolen and their children impoverished?

  "Politics aims to change systems for the benefit of people; Theosophy aims to change people themselves for the long-term benefit of humanity itself.

"

  How exactly is this changing of people going to happen?

  Please list perhaps 5 practical ways that you might recommend. 

  "Whether the physical man be under the rule of an empire or a republic, concerns only the man of matter."
  This is a stance I cannot support. Theosophy itself nor its publications could not be spread without the freedom to do so, which requires freedom and rights within the body politics, which requires MEN to advocate laws forbidding tyranny, armies to defend against tyrant nations, including against those of the "insane dreams of Socialism and Communism, which if abhors -as both are but disguised conspirations of brutal force and sluggishness against honest labour".

  Man must evolve with matter. Without freedom in that matter how is he to evolve. ?????



  

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