Re: theos-talk H. P. Blavatsky commited many erros and mistakes? --- also in the Secret Doctrine?
Jun 17, 2011 03:54 AM
by M. Sufilight
Sorry.
I wrote "Dear John and raders" in the previous post of mine in this thread. I should of course have been "Dear John and readers" (smile.)
To John:
John wrote:
"Morten, I know how proud the Danes are of Danish butter but please don't use it so liberally to butter one topic into several others by smearing that wonderful Danish butter all over the universe, as it impedes the completion of one thought before it is finalized, and clutters up the conversation lol."
M. Sufilight says:
Smile. Yes, various commercials make people believe that we Danes eat a lot of butter, but this is not true as much as it has been in the past. In fact I never eat butter, unless if circumstances make it necessary. So...there you are. Smile.
So in what manner have I "buttered" anything?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@OYs75FGQFN3ouD3OfNX0d8gIybU6dmylA_kCbs7275IOLWQ61XwVl3p-m8ajsQn1Q0OFTWpL4NiQX1lmWcYp.yahoo.invalid
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk H. P. Blavatsky commited many erros and mistakes? --- also in the Secret Doctrine?
Morten,
Well, I again refer you to the links I posted as they do explain your questions. I am specifically chatting about the Astronomy and Astronomers and the Celestial Heavens and Zodiac. I will not blurr their Science with discussion about Astrology, Astrologers, Soothsayers, Omens, Fetishes of ancient times and popular beliefs. Also I am not speaking about prophecy or subtle anything, because is is not cogent to the scientific precession of the Zodiac and the Sun of our Solar Systems precession as to the Vernal Equinox.
Morten, I know how proud the Danes are of Danish butter but please don't use it so liberally to butter one topic into several others by smearing that wonderful Danish butter all over the universe, as it impedes the completion of one thought before it is finalized, and clutters up the conversation lol.
The so-called Solstices and Equinoxes are simply representing the unique viewpoint of mankind from the point of view positioned upon the ground of our particular planet, the Earth, as we watch the daily motion of the Sun , the Moon, Stars, and the Heavens. The 1st Action of the Spiritual Being is to "Adopt a Point of View", ie; to take a position from which perception is known. This can be dynamic micro to macro Pan-seeingness as when the Being see's in all directions at once instead of our usual limitation that is in conformance to the physical dualism of reality on any form planes. If we lived on other planets with other Sun's the process might be different such as on Binary and Trinary Star (Suns) System's with Planets and inhabitants on them who try to obtain the true Vernal and Autumnal Equinoxes. So Adopting a Point from which to view for the purpose of Perception is Primordial and predates much of all that is and all that is about us. So it is really all "arbitrary" to the descent of the Being into Matter, Energy , Space and Time.
It all subsumes to the Primordial Wisdom of the Being and Original Nature. So why do Human's invent arguments? Lol!. What do Human's possess that loves to infinitely differentiate and create distinctions upon which perpetual disagreement can be had in order to cause maintenance of reality? Patanjali told us all.
o
On the Headress's of the Icons on the Gate of the Sun at Tiahuanaco on the top of the head of the zoomorphic figures there are glyphs dated back to 15,538 B.C. by ArthuroPosnansky. One of these Headdress Glyphs is a "Snail Shell" ( a very simple pleasant innocent glyph) but this glyph portrays an Astronomers "postition" with a view to include both the East and West Horizons ( he is centered exactly beneath the vertical "Transit" apex of the center of the top of the snail shell down to the ground and the center of the top of the Astronomer/High Priest's hat ( on which there is a astonishing representation of the "Quadrants of the Heaven" . Now on the snail shell you will see the "spiral" we see on real snails shells, but this spiral uniquely indicates the ascent degrees from the Horizon to the "Zenith" point that is the focus of the Astronomical Objects "transit" and is indicating the elevation in degree's (by the Spiral "turns" each approx. 30 degree's change of in ascent) as seen looking at the distant horizon . Now there is a "conical "cap" zone that is shown by the little curlicule near the Zenith transit Point that is"'x'd" by the Zenith perpendicullar line and the transit section line that horizontally crosses the end of the small curicule of the ascending "spiral" on the snail shell glyph on the top of the headress of the zoomorphic "sun runners". On the Gate of the Sun of Tiahuanaco, there are three vertical rows of "zoomorphic figures", the top row represents events that happen at elevations above the seen Horizon, the Middle Row represents events that occur at or on the "seen" Horizons, the bottom row of zoomorphic figures represent events that occur "below" the seen Horizons which cannot be observed by direct sight of the observing ancient Tiahuanacan High Priest/ Astronomer. There are also two "Trumpeters, (one at each end of the Gate Calendar Meander, they are announcing the "Solstice's". The 1st and 7th "Twelfthe's" - the "Plumed Heads' on the Meander indicate the two Equinoxe's ) This can be found Arthuro Posnansky's "Tiahuanaco -Cradle of American Man " and Hans Schindlers "The Calendar of Tiahuanaco". Every single feature carved on these very ancient glyphs has astronomical meaning and gave data that is amazing . There is no other Civilization like Tiahuanaco that remains to be examined in our time that is so ancient and so scientific. The so called "idols" are 18 feet tall they are also covered from head to toe with glyphs that described their Astronomy, Chemistry, Mathematics, and other Sciences but much of these precious remnants were lost when the Spanish crushed these "Evil Demonic Idols" into small rocks to use the crushed rock ( the knowledge now destroyed forever ) for railroad "ballast". The Primary objects tracked by the Sun Calendar were the Sun, the Moon, Bellamy in his work has charts of the sinusoidal orbital paths of them given out by the glyphs, how are to be able to see what a Heirophants saw 17, 600 years ago.
Regards, John
----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@9oFqJ6N1A0Xt5TNQQuZL3G_hf3GHnDEycV6UlKX0i1UM6eym6i-KRN3pOVuVs3y2tSrRlMkZSClKHavwprXQnjLIusUPLQ.yahoo.invalid>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 10:59:24 AM
Subject: Re: theos-talk H. P. Blavatsky commited many erros and mistakes? --- also in the Secret Doctrine?
Dear John and friends
My views are:
Thank you for answering. I appreciate that.
I find this exchange to be important, because, if it can be proven that Blavatsky committed MANY ERRORS, as the Sanskrit scholar David Reigle would like us to think, then a whole lot will be changed for a great number of people. Do you not think so?
I think, that there perhaps have occurred a few misunderstandings when I compare your answer with my previous posting to you.
I am referring to Eastern esoteric Astrology, (and not Easter Astrology, sorry about the spelling error in the previous posting of mine), just as I find that Blavatsky are doing again and again in her writings.
First a few articles in the below which can be compared with the quote in mention ( The quote in mention is here:
THE ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS, p. 174 - http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v8/y1887_030.htm ). Note well, that Blavatsky clearly is operating from the point of view of the Eastern Astrology and Calendars.
ASTROLOGY AND ASTROLATRY by Blavatsky
"Primitive Astrology was as far above modern judiciary Astrology, so-called, as the guides (the Planets and Zodiacal signs) are above the lamp-posts."
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v14/ph_070.htm
H. P. Blavatsky wrote in the Secret Doctrine:
"The chronology and computations of the Brahmin Initiates are based upon the Zodiacal records of India, and the works of the above-mentioned astronomer and magician â Asuramaya. The Atlantean zodiacal records cannot err, as they were compiled under the guidance of those who first taught astronomy, among other things, to mankind."
(The Secret Doctrine, vol. II, p. 49)
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/SDVolume2.htm
THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES by Blavatsky
(Times article was mentioned in connection with the quote about the Aquarias age.)
http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/SignsOfTheTimes.htm
- - -
Now I will comment on your views...
John wrote:
"My earlier response was pointing at David Reigle's indicator about the writing of "Gerald Massey" which he stated used the year 1900, this doesn't mean Blavatsky wrote that originally herself but only that somehow she or her editors included it. "
M. Sufilight says:
If you are right, that Blavatsky did not write this footnote herself, then we will have to agree upon that the Mahatma Letters to Hubbe Schleiden and Olcott are false letters?
(See here: The Writing of The Secret Doctrine
By Kirby Van Mater - http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/invit-sd/invsd-4.htm - See also Masters letter to Olcott august 1888 - Letters from the Masters of the Wisdom, No. 19, I:47, 5th ed. )
Well, why not....Then we can act suspiciously like the Coulombs and Hodgson from SPR and accuse her of a number of other false statements, while we merely assume that she committed them....But why on earth should one do that, when documentation says something else?
John wrote:
"The only Astronomical body that precesses through the Zodiac in our solar system that can be used to precisely establish with precision is the Sun itself "
M. Sufilight says:
But, this is not the whole true to esoteric Astrologers if you ask me.
Now as I said, I am no expert on these matters. But I do know, that the Equinox can be measured by the Spring Equinox of the Sun, the Autumnal Equinox of the Sun, - or - one of the Fixed Stars among the Constellations, - all exoterically. Esoterically, these three models can be used while instead measuring by the use of Clairvoyance or the Knowledge of the Higher Self --- such a measuring is Karmically related and not primarily physically - and here one is looking at - the position of the Aura(!) of the three-four lower levels, not the physical body alone - and the esoteric influences coming from the Solar Stars, where each of the 7 Kumaras are operating so to speak. I think that it is the latter version, which are the proper one or at least closer to the truth, and not any earth-like calculations of when a physical Sun begin to move into a certain spot on the sky.
And that was perhaps also what Blavatsky was referring to, when talking about that the science on Psychology in the near future sould be important to humanity. And since the 1920'ties and even before it certainly was and has been so on this globe. Coorporations use psychology. When people get educated they learn psychological methods, or under other names coaching, pedagogical methods etc. etc.
Now you tell me, why it - Necessarily - has to be so, as you stated, that the "only Astronomical body that precesses through the Zodiac in our solar system that can be used to precisely establish with precision is the Sun itself "? John?
If the physical spot and the Spring Equinox is the real manner of measuring and good reason can be provided for it, I will heartily welcome such a view as yours. But for the time being I will not.
I stick to my esoterical karmic measuring og the cycles and the patterns of life. I have seen enough on my astral travels to forward this view and voice it on this forum. But I am, at the moment, not certain about what Blavatsky meant when she wrote the words, and that is the honest answer to you and all readers.
John wrote:
" I also included a link about the wrong deliberate and false Catholic Church position in regards to this scientific method of finding the exact time of the vernal Equinox."
M. Sufilight says:
Yes, allright. I do not find that the Catholic Church as it is today is promoting anything which has to do with esoteric Eastern astrology.
But, until now we have just touched upon one single possible error commited by Blavatsky (apart from Isis Unveiled, which she herself admitted was trash, especially because some edited it before publication.)
John wrote:
"Since the time Madame Blavatsky was here much new knowledge has been evolved about the reality of our Universe,Galaxys, Stars, Sun, Planets, Earth, Moon, Matter, Energy, Space and Time and yet it is not the "end " of Knowledge but always, a maturing an expansion of beingness and understanding, solve et coagula."
M. Sufilight says:
Yes. This is important. And perhaps karmic patterns dis-allowed too much to be revealed in 1888 and even later.
Just to show the readers, that I have an open mind about it all, I will in return ask a question to all readers, which bothers me a bit from time to time...
Was the Moon and the Sun covering to other planets, when the ancients forwarded the science on the 7 planets? And was these two planets Vulcan for the Sun, and Uranus for the Moon? (See Secret Doctrine Vol. I, p. 99 and TRANSACTIONS OF THE BLAVATSKY LODGE, p. 46-47 - http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/Transactions.htm )
I ask because I find that the two references are conclicting, to a certain degree.
I know AAB books says that is Moon (Uranus) and the Sun (Vulcan).
Further, we know that our present day scientists have not found Vulcan.
Yet, they still have problems with their calculations. Maybe Vulcan is an etheric planet.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide-field_Infrared_Survey_Explorer and also NASA "The Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer, or WISE" http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/WISE/mission/index.html - The Wise-system have recently discovered a number of comets in our solar system and also Saturns huge infrared Ring.
John wrote:
"Even the best Authors and Publisher's and Proof Reader's fail to get 100 % of the manuscript errors or factual errors that end up in a final draft that is printed and sold."
M. Sufilight says:
Yes. But that is not the same as stating that Blavatsky committed - many errors in her writings is it?
John wrote:
"I personally have a deep respect of David Reigle and his research team and all they have done to advance knowledge and understanding pertinent to Theosophical Society literature. I support his work and intellect."
M. Sufilight says:
I will have to say jokingly: Let us hope, that you do not go and worship his intellect. (smile.)
Are you saying that you find David Reigle to be more clairvoyant than Blavatsky?
It seems so.
All the above are as always just my views.
Are there any long time students of astrology present reading this?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@OYs75FGQFN3ouD3OfNX0d8gIybU6dmylA_kCbs7275IOLWQ61XwVl3p-m8ajsQn1Q0OFTWpL4NiQX1lmWcYp.yahoo.invalid
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk H. P. Blavatsky commited many erros and mistakes? --- also in the Secret Doctrine?
Morten, all,
Well I remain with my previous position I posted about the Age of Aquarius for these reasons
.
1. whoever or whatever said the Age of Aquarius begins in the year 1900 has to be in error. The entrance of our solar system's physical Sun into the 1st degree of the Constellation of Aries is an Astronomical event dependent upon the actual physical Sun's precession and transit through the Zodiac. The most correct date is 2155 A.D. (in my personal view) but due to ancient errors that continue with some, it can be posited as 2150, 2151, 2154 but 2155 is the most correct. As madame Blavatsky also stated! My earlier response was pointing at David Reigle's indicator about the writing of "Gerald Massey" which he stated used the year 1900, this doesn't mean Blavatsky wrote that originally herself but only that somehow she or her editors included it. The only Astronomical body that precesses through the Zodiac in our solar system that can be used to precisely establish with precision is the Sun itself not our Earth Satellite the Moon.. The Moon never "precesses" through the Zodiac, it and all the planets are carried by the sun through the Zodiac whether they want to go or not!
I posted links that will educate upon this fact. See my original post on this topic. I also included a link about the wrong deliberate and false Catholic Church position in regards to this scientific method of finding the exact time of the vernal Equinox. And the links explain the Catholic Church's vested interest and why they did this and the difference of Catholic Easter and the real Vernal Equinox. For Theosophists it is valuable knowledge in my view.
2. The Lunar calendar is dependent upon the earth's physical satellite, the Moon. Some cultures in history use a Lunar calendar, others use a Solar calendar. But those are calendars and not precision precession astronomical measurements of the suns minute exact "Astronomical' position in the Constellations of the Zodiac in regards to the Great Solar Astronomical year and the Solstices and Vernal Equinox's . There is not way for the Moon to be the determinator of the earths Sun's Precision Astronomical position, this is proven in the links I provided. It is the Sun's change of position that determines the entry in to the Vernal Equinox. The only way the Autumnal Equinox can be a determinator is when it is measured from a position point that is south of the earth's equator, in which case the seasons are reverse than in the locations North of the Equator, their Vernal Equinox or "Spring" occurs in September not March. In the Northern Equator where most of history we are commonly aware takes place for Europe, Asia, North America etc. it is in march the the Vernal Equinox takes place for many thousands of years. Since the time Madame Blavatsky was here much new knowledge has been evolved about the reality of our Universe,Galaxys, Stars, Sun, Planets, Earth, Moon, Matter, Energy, Space and Time and yet it is not the "end " of Knowledge but always, a maturing an expansion of beingness and understanding, solve et coagula.
3. Even the best Authors and Publisher's and Proof Reader's fail to get 100 % of the manuscript errors or factual errors that end up in a final draft that is printed and sold. Humans are not infallible---" Absolutes are unobtainable in the Secondary Creation" which is intrinsically maintained by it's innate error itself. So in my personal view it is afact that errors are and were sent to press and printed even when it concerns Blavatsky's works, and that is not an attack upon Madame Blavatsky it is simply the truth and a factual reality.
4. I have been in this Forum since 1999 I defy anyone to show a post from me where I ever said I am the possessor of "wisdom or knowledge" in any form above any other member who has been here in this Forum. I never ever have made any such statement, nor would I ever do that. I also have never attacked Blavatsky. Nor would I.
5.. I personally have a deep respect of David Reigle and his research team and all they have done to advance knowledge and understanding pertinent to Theosophical Society literature. I support his work and intellect.
Regards,
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Sufilight" < global-theosophy@9oFqJ6N1A0Xt5TNQQuZL3G_hf3GHnDEycV6UlKX0i1UM6eym6i-KRN3pOVuVs3y2tSrRlMkZSClKHavwprXQnjLIusUPLQ.yahoo.invalid >
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 6:15:44 AM
Subject: Re: theos-talk H. P. Blavatsky commited many erros and mistakes? --- also in the Secret Doctrine?
Dear friends
My views are:
Surprise....Now the thread in mention named
"Truth and Illusion in Theosophical Literature" can suddenly be accessed again on The Theosophical Network forum. No explanation has been given. Strange is it not?
Truth and Illusion in Theosophical Literature
http://theosnet.ning.com/profiles/blogs/truth-and-illusion-in?xg_source=activity
The following recent comments in the thread seems interesting to quote...
Comment by David Reigle on June 6, 2011 at 1:10pm
"I have as much respect for HPB as anyone, but if we are to speak about truth and illusion in Theosophical literature, it may be best to start with truth and illusion in HPB's own writings. Her writings are full of errors. A large number of these are the errors of writers of her time, whom she copied."
.
. . . . . ..
Comment by Paulo Baptista on June 10, 2011 at 12:29pm
"As I wrote in the last post, I (and certainly others too) would appreciate a lot a broader discussion about the alleged errors and blinds in HPB books and articles. Surely that nobody likes to study books that are "full of errors"."
.......
Comment by Joe Fulton on June 11, 2011 at 12:41am
"This premise discussion is bogus and it should not have been allowed to been posted. We should not be having it here in the first place. For one, it presupposes that everything that is different from what the writer believes is "psuedo-theosophy". This entire site is an exploration into the various theosophies, not just Blavatsky's. That is not a basis for a rational discussion.
Try as we may to be kind and thoughtful, by responding to this we legitimize a point of view that really does not belong on this forum. It's very premise is based on denigrating, and labeling as "psuedo" any other interpretations and traditions of theosophy.
Having to defend against the proposition is like defending a statement by fundamentalist Christian who believes that anyone outside of their sect is practicing some heretical form of Christianity. There is no reasoning, it is only a one way coversation.
This discussion is closed."
But now the discussion is open again it seems and with, if I may say so, an excellent posting by Jerry Hejka Ekins. And we all might wonder why The Theosophical Network operate so strangely?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Sufilight
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: theos-talk H. P. Blavatsky commited many erros and mistakes? --- also in the Secret Doctrine?
Dear friends
My views are:
Just to let the readers now about it...
It now appears that the following blog by Joaquim Soares "Truth and Illusion in Theosophical Literature", which this thread are concerned with, suddenly has been DELETED on The Theosophical Network and that Joaquim Soares is no longer a member of the forum. And we might .- in the name of transparency - wonder why this happened? Anyone?
Truth and Illusion in Theosophical Literature
http://theosnet.ning.com/profiles/blogs/truth-and-illusion-in?xg_source=activity
Scroll and click the proper link in the right coloumn on the main page:
http://theosnet.ning.com/
Joaquim Soares profile
http://theosnet.ning.com/profile/JoaquimSoares
But not all Joaquim Soares threads have been deleted:
Mahatmas and Chelas
Posted by Joaquim Soares on June 8, 2011 at 3:38pm
http://theosnet.ning.com/profiles/blogs/mahatmas-and-chelas
(In the old days, the members were told when a member left the Theosophical Society.)
___________________________________________
This thread you are reading right now began with the following words:
In the below link from the forum named "The Theosophical Network" we find a recent post, dated June 6th this year, by the Sanskrit Scholar and theosophical seeker David Reigle - stating that H. P. Blavatsky commited many errors in her writings and many times merely repeated what other writers had written.
Truth and Illusion in Theosophical Literature
http://theosnet.ning.com/profiles/blogs/truth-and-illusion-in?xg_source=activity
What do the readers on this - less moderated forum - think about such a view?
Do they all agree with David Reigle's assertions?
I disagree with David, because he is not giving a fair judgment of Blavatsky's writings as far as I know and can read.
I would say, that Dead-Letter reading and thinking are not the highest aims to use, when seeking to understand H. P. Blavatsky's words and her motives.
______________________________________
A few more words:
Various words were used by people in different ages, and in various ages they had quite another meaning attached to them than they had few centuries ago and even today. There were esoteric as well as exoteric use of words in the past centuries and in the old days as well. (Those present day scientists who study words and languages and how they develop through ages might reveal more about this issue.)
And saying that some words do not exist because they have not been found, is the same as saying that the sun is not there because you cannot see it. Words like "Mula-prakriti" or "Svabhavat" for instance had more than one definition attached to them in the old days. "Mula-prakriti" was also called Aditi, when the dead-letter reading was abolished. And sometimes various words was and are used so to aim at a synthesis teaching - so to in the name of altrusism - if possible - reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities. And not to promote Secterian activities, but rather so to provoke the intuition of the readers or listener..
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: M. Sufilight
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: theos-talk H. P. Blavatsky commited many erros and mistakes? --- also in the Secret Doctrine?
Dear John and other readers and all our fellow human beings
My views are:
In the previous post I wrote:
"All the above are of course just my views. And I wrote the words so that we might find the truth about compassion and the meaning of life in mutual friendship, ( and a non-secterian one, that is). "
Please John show your heart.
Why are - ALL - my arguments silly? First you attack Blavatsky, and now you attack me instead of answering, do you not?
Now you appearntly - in the name of compassion? - refuse to show us all the truth and wisdom you claim that YOU yourself know about?
Merely attacking the old woman Blavatsky and throw your negative stance upon her without proper documentation will only give the world the impression, that you are dishonest, will it not? Or is it a new theory on compassion and wisdom you seek to promote?
Is it not true, that we all will have to find out which Equinox was used in the calculation given by Blavatsky before we will come to an agreement? Else my argument will stand just as valid as yours and David Reigles, will it not?
(Well apart from me not claiming that I have a Ph.D. or something like that)
The original aim of the Theosophical Society was to promote altruism and to promote the motto: There is no Religion Higher than the Truth.
I suggest that we follow the original idea about comparative studying - and seek to be in sympathy with the aim of altruism.
- - -
Here is the actual quote which David Reigle and John accuse Blavatsky of making an error in:
"* There are several remarkable cycles that come to a close at the end of this century. First, the 5,000 years of the Kaliyuga cycle; again the Messianic cycle of the Samaritan (also Kabalistic) Jews of the man connected with Pisces (Ichthys or âFish-manâ Dag). It is a cycle, historic and not very long, but very occult, lasting about 2,155 solar years, but having a true significance only when computed by lunar months. It occurred 2410 and 255 B.C., or when the equinox entered into the sign of the Ram, and again into that of Pisces. When it enters, in a few years, the sign of Aquarius, psychologists will have some extra work to do, and the psychic idiosyncrasies of humanity will enter on a great change. "
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v8/y1887_030.htm
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@OYs75FGQFN3ouD3OfNX0d8gIybU6dmylA_kCbs7275IOLWQ61XwVl3p-m8ajsQn1Q0OFTWpL4NiQX1lmWcYp.yahoo.invalid
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 2:25 AM
Subject: Re: theos-talk H. P. Blavatsky commited many erros and mistakes? --- also in the Secret Doctrine?
Morten ,
Sorry, you reply with silly arguments i can't respond to. Read what I posted links for carefully until you understand whre the 1st degree of Aries is about. Please don't bore me with conceited allusions to your akashic perceptions or other grandiose declarations.
John
-- --- Original Message -----
From: "M. Sufilight" < global-theosophy@9oFqJ6N1A0Xt5TNQQuZL3G_hf3GHnDEycV6UlKX0i1UM6eym6i-KRN3pOVuVs3y2tSrRlMkZSClKHavwprXQnjLIusUPLQ.yahoo.invalid >
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2011 2:54:07 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk H. P. Blavatsky commited many erros and mistakes? --- also in the Secret Doctrine?
Dear John
My views are:
*** 1 ***
About the Age of Aquarius and, yours and David Reigles stance:
Now I will admit that I am no expert on Astrology, and most would-be-theosophists are in fact not. But I can read and compare the various doctrines. I find that David Reigle may have a need to make his view fit with his Westernizing Alice A. Bailey ideas or maybe there is another reason...Let him explain how he arrived at his use of a Equinox, -- a Western one as far as I understand him, and not an Easter Equinox.
About this one particular issue the Age of Aquarius, we do not find Blavatsky talking about any Western spring Equinox in the quoted mentioned as far as I have seen.
Autumnal not the Spring or Vernal Equinox could to be the true indicator of mankindâs "astrological" state of development in the world today according to Hindu Calendars - which Blavatsky time and again seem to base her calculations and clairvoyant observations on. And that maybe the Autumnal Equinox need to be mirrored in the Zodiac. - And there seem to be other Equinoxes in the Eastern Astrological teachings. And it seems also important how one cuts the Zodiac into twelve pieces.
What views have there been forwarded on this by David Reigle and others? John?
Here is the actual quote which David Reigle and you accused Blavatsky of making an error in:
"* There are several remarkable cycles that come to a close at the end of this century. First, the 5,000 years of the Kaliyuga cycle; again the Messianic cycle of the Samaritan (also Kabalistic) Jews of the man connected with Pisces (Ichthys or âFish-manâ Dag). It is a cycle, historic and not very long, but very occult, lasting about 2,155 solar years, but having a true significance only when computed by lunar months. It occurred 2410 and 255 B.C., or when the equinox entered into the sign of the Ram, and again into that of Pisces. When it enters, in a few years, the sign of Aquarius, psychologists will have some extra work to do, and the psychic idiosyncrasies of humanity will enter on a great change. "
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v8/y1887_030.htm
As the readers can see, it can be questioned what kind of Equinox is followed. An Autumnal Equinox, Spring Equinox, or another kind of Eastern Equinox?
And it seems also important how one cuts the Zodiac into twelve pieces - exoterically or esoterically (ie. clairvoyantly, non-physically).
- - -
The Theosophist David Pratt has offered some views on the issue, and forwards, that there are several theories floating around these days.
POLESHIFTS
http://davidpratt.info/pole5.htm
I think we should keep the Hindu Calendars in mind when dealing with the issue.
- - -
*** 2 ***
John wrote:
"Also if you recall Blavatsky was sorely castigated by many attacks accusiung her of not giving credit to authors whose books she used to include excerpts from in her published works. "
M. Sufilight says:
Throw some references on it from her writings in the years 1888-1891, and please leave Isis Unveiled out of it, because Blavatsky herself said some of the mistakes was not her fault, but old Olcott's, and that she did not know that much about the seven keys and other issues back then in 1877. And also reference on those "Q" sources, which I fail to remember. --- And if you do this, then please bear in mind that some of her papers and letters was written - with disregard for Dead-Letter teaching - using Gematria and the seven keys to the Mystery Language, and the some of the receivers at the other end, might have known about them, or might have been provoked in their inner "organ" of esoteric intuition by the writings.
*** 3 ***
John wrote:
"The point is she used a vast amount of inclusions throughout her writtings. A huge amount of material was used from the Anaclypsis of Sir Godfrey Higgins on comparitive origins of religions and the grand cycles of time and the ages. Also even the title of Higgins work may have contributed to Madame Blavatsky's "Isis Unveiled"."
M. Sufilight says:
About Higgins I find that you are somewhat unfair. Yes, she quoted from his book from time to time. But his book also had faults, which was more or less corrected at various places. Throw me ...say... three paragraphs from Isis Unveiled, where Blavatsky verbatim stole from Higgins without quoting him - then we might agree to a certain extend -else I will decline you assertions. But please bear - also - the below quote and article in mind before you crucify Blavatsky about Isis Unveiled. And seek to be honest and objective in your judgment.
Blavatsky did not decide the title on Isis Unveiled, and said so herself. The publisher decided it. (See Collected Writings or one of her letters. I will search the quote if nobody else are able to provide it.)
HPB about the faults in Isis Unveiled etc.:
(â From My Books, Helena Blavatsky, 1891)
"But in spite of these perhaps too great admissions [about the vast inadequacies of the two books], I maintain that Isis Unveiled contains a mass of original and never hitherto divulged information on occult subjects. That this is so, is proved by the fact that the work has been fully appreciated by all those who have been intelligent enough to discern the kernel, and pay little attention to the shell, to give the preference to the idea and not to the form, regardless of its minor shortcomings. Prepared to take upon myself â vicariously as I will show â the sins of all the external, purely literary defects of the work, I defend the ideas and teachings in it, with no fear of being charged with conceit, since neither ideas nor teaching are mine, as I have always declared; and I maintain that both are of the greatest value to mystics and students of Theosophy".
........
"And what I say and maintain is this: Save the direct quotations and the many afore specified and mentioned misprints, errors and misquotations, and the general make-up of Isis Unveiled, for which I am in no way responsible, (a) every word of information found in this work or in my later writings, comes from the teachings of our Eastern Masters; and (b) that many a passage in these works has been written by me under their dictation. In saying this no supernatural claim is urged, for no miracle is performed by such a dictation."
.......
"Hitherto, I have abstainedâexcept on very rare occasionsâfrom answering any criticism on my works, and have even left direct slanders and lies unrefuted, because in the case of Isis I found almost every kind of criticism justifiable, and in that of âslanders and lies,â my contempt for the slanderers was too great to permit me to notice them."
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v13/y1891_024.htm
- - - - - - -
*** 4 ***
Now reading in the Akasha is not always an easy art, when you are no Master yet.
The 3 and 4 level initiates have to learn, and they are from time to time in need for their friends to help them - and - especially so - and - ALSO - because they are not always allowed to reveal their knowledge to the ignorant or vulgar, or those with a Karma. So they in fact have to pretend to be ignorant. The initiates operate by the use of Designs, (and their behaviour are because of that from time to time, and of necessity and of compassion - very strange to the uninitiated and ignorants,) measuring and evaluation.
Some of us know about the realities about these things - even when we do not claim to be on a level of a Master or even a Blavatsky or perhaps a Damodar Mavalankar.
Let those who accept clairvoyance deny the existence of the Akasha - and explain why it is not there, if they are willing. And let those who deny the existence of clairvoyance and the Akasha talk with the parapsychologists and even present day SPR. or let them deny that a dolphin (and even a bat) have a special sense known as a Bio-sonar, and that various migrating birds have a magnetic sense, which enable them to sense magnetic currents and navigate by them to a given country on the planet. - And let people deny that dogs and other animals can both hear and smell on a level which dumb polluted better-knowing humans are not able to do. - But some of us know about these extra ordinary sensory perception - and therefore we are not prepared to deny their existence in our time.
A Letter from Bertram Keightley about Blavatsky's clairvoyance:
"20b. Bertram Keightley, MayâJune, 1888, London [Keightley 1931, 21â3]
HPB always wrote the editorial [for Lucifer] herself, and also many other articles under more than one nom de plume, and she had a fancy for very often heading it with some quotation, and it used to be one of my troubles that she very seldom gave any reference for these, so that I had much work, and even visits to the British Museum Reading Room, in order to verify and check them, even when I did manage, with much entreaty, and after being most heartily "cussed," to extract some reference from her.
One day she handed me as usual the copy of her contribution, a story for the next issue, headed with a couple of four-line stanzas. I went and plagued her for a reference and would not be satisfied without one. She took the MS and when I came back for it, I found she had just written the name "Alfred Tennyson" under the verses. Seeing this, I was at a loss, for I knew my Tennyson pretty well and was certain that I had never read these lines in any poem of his, nor were they at all in his style. I hunted up my Tennyson, could not find them, consulted every one I could get atâalso in vain. Then back I went to HPB and told her all this and said that I was sure these lines could not be Tennysonâs, and I dared not print them with his name attached, unless I could give an exact reference. HPB just damned me and told me to get out and go to Hell. It happened that the Lucifer copy must go to the printers that same day. So I just told her that I should strike out Tennysonâs name when I went, unless she gave me a reference before I started. Just on starting I went to her again, and she handed me a scrap of paper on which were written the words: The Gemâ1831. "Well, HPB," I said, "this is worse than ever, for I am dead certain that Tennyson has never written any poem called "The Gem." All HPB said was just, "Get out and be off."
So I went to the British Museum Reading Room and consulted the folk there; but they could give me no help, and they one and all agreed that the verses could not be, and were not, Tennysonâs. As a last resort, I asked to see Mr. Richard Garnett, the famous Head of the Reading Room in those days, and was taken to him. I explained to him the situation and he also agreed in feeling sure the verses were not Tennysonâs. But after thinking quite a while, he asked me if I had consulted the Catalogue of Periodical Publications. I said no, and asked where that came in. "Well," said Mr. Garnett, "I have a dim recollection that there was once a brief-lived magazine called the Gem. It might be worth your looking it up." I did so, and in the volume for the year given in HPBâs note, I found a poem of a few stanzas signed "Alfred Tennyson" and containing the two stanzas quoted by HPB verbatim as she had written them down. And anyone can now read them in the second volume of Lucifer*: but I have never found them even in the supposedly most complete and perfect edition of Tennysonâs works."
http://www.theosophical.org/online-resources/1722
Did the above help some of the readers?
All the above are of course just my views. And I wrote the words so that we might find the truth about compassion and the meaning of life in mutual friendship, ( and a non-secterian one, that is).
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@OYs75FGQFN3ouD3OfNX0d8gIybU6dmylA_kCbs7275IOLWQ61XwVl3p-m8ajsQn1Q0OFTWpL4NiQX1lmWcYp.yahoo.invalid
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2011 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk H. P. Blavatsky commited many erros and mistakes? --- also in the Secret Doctrine?
Morten,
Sorry, I agree with David Reigle's post that you were responding to. I do think Reigle gives a correct honest view of the actual record. In particular about his mention of the Age of Aquarius not beginning in the year 1900 as he says Blavatsky recounts. The Age of Aquarius has to have it's beginning moment when our Sun actually enters the 1st degree of the Constellation of Aquarius fully (which means our sun must be 0.05 degrees past the 1st degree point of Aquarius) Astronomically, we are now only just short of the 28th degree of Pisces and will not enter Aquarius until the year 2155 AD, 144 years in the future of today 2011 that makes the year 1900 invalid. I will give links on this particular topic later.
Also if you recall Blavatsky was sorely castigated by many attacks accusiung her of not giving credit to authors whose books she used to include excerpts from in her published works. My view is she usually mention the "Q" source she used within the text she wrote even if it wasn't found in a bibliology as a formal procedural conformance. however I used her references to buy her "Q" sources she used so I could learn what she read that so impressed her. The point is she used a vast amount of inclusions throughout her writtings. A huge amount of material was used from the Anaclypsis of Sir Godfrey Higgins on comparitive origins of religions and the grand cycles of time and the ages. Also even the title of Higgins work may have contributed to Madame Blavatsky's "Isis Unveiled". Higgins work was titled " Anacalypsis, -- an Attempt To Draw Aside The Veil of The Saitic Isis" published London England 1836 A.D. in two Volumes, vol. 1 519 pages plus plates, vol. II 867 pages (1386 pages). The fact is Madame Blavatsky utilized many works of excellence and of high reputation probably upon the prompt of her Mahatma's and also maybe due to her Grandfather's huge library she had access to as a child. Also even G. R. S. Meade made comment that Madame Blavatsky kept us all very busy running to the Bodlien Library to research from the Books she would indicate for us to find. Whether you read Isis or SD or other works she made many references to published materials she used in putting forth her teachings in addition to what she was allowed to teach of the Mahatma Doctrines.
The Aquarian Age -- A Rosecruxian View
>>> ttp://www.rosicrucian.com/zineen/magen119.htm <<<
Astrologers take note --- we are Nowhere near the "Dawning of the Age of Aquarius
>>> http://pseudoastro.wordpress.com/2010/02/09/astrologers-take-note-we-are-nowhere-near-the-dawning-of-the-age-of-aquarius/ <<<
History of the Gregorian Calendar - Life of Christ Astrological Age of Aquarius
>>> http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/chrono.htg/chrono.htm <<<
Seal of Solomon Birth Chart of Christ
>>> http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/christpi.htg/christpi.htm <<<
astronomical sun enters age of Aquarius Google web search
>>> http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=astronomical+sun+enters+age+of+aquarius&aq=&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=7ff7d408b5d36764&biw=1422&bih=751 <<<
BTW--- Chuck --- The Sun is the Sheperd -- the Planets are the Sheep (But I don't want to be a planet Chuck!!! lol)
----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Sufilight" < global-theosophy@9oFqJ6N1A0Xt5TNQQuZL3G_hf3GHnDEycV6UlKX0i1UM6eym6i-KRN3pOVuVs3y2tSrRlMkZSClKHavwprXQnjLIusUPLQ.yahoo.invalid >
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2011 2:44:58 AM
Subject: theos-talk H. P. Blavatsky commited many erros and mistakes? --- also in the Secret Doctrine?
Dear friends
My views are:
In the below link from the forum named "The Theosophical Network" we find a recent post, dated June 6th this year, by the Sanskrit Scholar and theosophical seeker David Reigle - stating that H. P. Blavatsky commited many errors in her writings and many times merely repeated what other writers had written.
Truth and Illusion in Theosophical Literature
http://theosnet.ning.com/profiles/blogs/truth-and-illusion-in?xg_source=activity
What do the readers on this - less moderated forum - think about such a view?
Do they all agree with David Reigle's assertions?
I disagree with David, because he is not giving a fair judgment of Blavatsky's writings as far as I know and can read.
I would say, that Dead-Letter reading and thinking are not the highest aims to use, when seeking to understand H. P. Blavatsky's words and her motives.
- - -
A sidenote:
I do not respond on the forum named "The Theosophical Network" because of its manner of operating and because the moderation on the forum is as far as I am concerned not in accordance with the original principles as they were given in the Theosophical Society and in its and Constitution in the years 1875-1891.
The reading of articles given in the Society's magazine the Theosophist from that time aught to throw some light on this.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Back to Top]
Theosophy World:
Dedicated to the Theosophical Philosophy and its Practical Application
