Theos-Talk Archives (April 2011 Message tt00075)

Let us all request Pelletier to make his book available as a pdf file on the
Internet for free. That way we all can read his book and see his arguments
and conclusions first hand.

MKR

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Govert Schuller <schuller@9dsIwpd0ffwYxjWpVoc75Fn8NtE5UcUHWvHll4kljdqGDAyurXsTBLZj_Rky98theoRlek7Tqt7EdOYKDA.yahoo.invalid>wrote:

>
>
> Dear Joaquim,
>
> Just for the right order, and not looking for an argument:
>
> I'm merely stating that a) Pelletier did not address sufficiently the
> points made by Brett Forray and b) that the books referenced to in the
> Aveline letter are not to be taken as objective, as informative as they are.
>
>
> It all boils down imo to applying a measure of discrimination between the
> facts and the interpretation of the facts within a certain ideological or
> metaphysical theory. It's about the difference between the viewpoint of the
> believer (the emic view) and that of the neutral investigator (the etic
> view). Most people treat their convictions as facts and present them as
> such. Theosophists not excluded.
>
> BTW, I requested Santucci to release the review for all to read.
>
> Best
>
> Govert
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jdmsoares
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 7:07 PM
> Subject: theos-talk Re: Justice to Judge in 2011
>
> Dear Govert, all friends,
>
> While not wanting to enter in any personal exchange of arguments, I must
> say the following:
>
> Ernest Pelliter himself wrote a commentary about the review made by
> Brett Forray. Once again, you can read Pelliter commentary at
> http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_AddressCriticsTJC.htm
> <http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_AddressCriticsTJC.htm> .
>
> Allow me to recommend reading the following text published in our
> websites:
>
> Corresponding With India On Ethics
>
> Two Letters to Mrs. Radha Burnier, One from Her
>
> The direct links are: http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=24
> <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=24> and
> http://www.filosofiaesoterica.com/ler.php?id=231
> <http://www.filosofiaesoterica.com/ler.php?id=231> .
>
> In the text, one can read in a letter to Radha Burnier, dated April
> 2006, the following:
>
> "So my respectful request to you - which I intend to renew in
> the years ahead if necessary - is that, as a sign of respect for
> truth and for the theosophical movement, the Theosophical Society,
> Adyar, re-examine the Judge Case and show any proofs of his guilt -
> or else declare him innocent. It will be also very important that all
> information and documents referring to the Judge Case be made available
> to independent researchers.
>
> That will mean indeed a significant contribution to the mutual
> understanding between the different groups and institutions of the
> theosophical movement as a whole.
>
> The search for truth, truthfulness and mutual respect are parts of our
> common ground."
>
> Thus we can see that already in 2006 it had been asked to the President
> of the Adyar Society that the archives could be opened and "all
> information and documents referring to the Judge Case be made available
> to independent researchers."
>
> Finally, the "Justice to Judge" initiative is promoted by
> INDEPENDENT STUDENTS from various countries, as it is very clearly
> expressed in the text "Justice to Judge in 2011 - The Sixth Year
> of Open Letters to India <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=220>
> ":
>
> "For the sixth time since April 2006, independent students from
> various countries will be sending on 13 April 2011 a number of open
> letters to the President of the Adyar Theosophical Society, Ms. Radha
> Burnier. The headquarters of the Society is in Chennai, India.
>
> The students will be asking her to help stop a century old injustice by
> re-examining the Adyar "Case" against Mr. William Q. Judge.
> Those who have an interest in the future of the theosophical movement
> are invited to join the initiative, which is a celebration of its
> dynamic unity.
>
> Restoring justice with regard to William Judge does more than showing
> that Adyar Society cares about Ethics and Truth. It gives a large
> portion of the movement a better chance to benefit from the example of
> Judge's life and from the wisdom present in his books. It opens the
> way to a more intense life of the theosophical effort, by promoting a
> better knowledge of its history and by destroying the illusion of
> separateness. It stimulates the perception that the movement as a whole
> is in fact one single magnetic field; that such an aura or energy-field
> has a center; and that its living center is related to the
> "blood" - the skandhas and magnetism donated by its main
> Founders.
>
> This is what is really important.
>
> I invite you all to join the initiative, which is a celebration of the
> dynamic unity of the theosophical movement.
>
> More information see: "Justice to Judge in 2011 - The Sixth Year
> of Open Letters to India <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=220>
> ".
>
> Best regards, Joaquim
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Joaquim,
> >
> > Thank you for linking to Pelletier's response to the reviewers of his
> book The Judge Case.
> >
> > I re-read Brett Forray's review in Theosophical History XI/2. Though I
> have not read The Judge Case it looks to me that Forray's review is
> even-handed, informative and critical of Pelletier in a very reasonable
> way. His main contention is that Pelletier's book "is solely intended to
> exonerate Mr. Judge's role in this drama" and that it "makes no attempt
> to impartially portray the many-sided views of this period."
> Unfortunately Pelletier's response misses many of the points Forray
> makes. If possible Forray's review should be made available for those
> interested to see for themselves.
> >
> > Important to the "Justice to Judge" campaign is Forray's call to have
> someone send over to Madras or Mumbai to inspect the crucial Judge to
> Khandalava letter of September 1884.
> >
> > Your list with on-line items is interesting, but misses a good article
> giving a neutral synopsis of the controversy. So far the most helpful
> historical rendering of the case comes from the historian Arthur
> Nethercot in his The Last Four Lives of Annie Besant, chapter 2 "The
> Judging of Judge." Neither camp will be happy with his presentation, but
> it seems the best so far.
> >
> > Especially one observation by Nethercot, tucked away in a footnote, is
> I think pertinent to evaluating both Pelletier's book and Carlos
> Aveline's "Call to Action" and that is his statement that the books The
> Theosophical Movement 1875-1925 and its revision (or update) "appear to
> be non-partisan in viewpoint, but are actually strongly biased towards
> Judge and the Theosophical groups which followed him in splitting from
> the main T.S." (p. 26) According to Forray, Pelletier relied
> particularly on the narrative provided by these books from the ULT,
> and--apparently so acknowledged in Pelletier's introduction--a synopsis
> of the period provided by a ULT member gave Pelletier "the model for his
> own outline of The Judge Case." The importance is that Aveline's, in
> principle commendable "Call to Action" is premised on the idea that "In
> fact, the 19th century process of unfair persecution against Judge
> within the Adyar Theosophical Society is very well documented in various
> books" (refering to the two ULT books and The Judge Case), giving the
> false impression as if these were objective, independent, non-related
> studies, while in reality the two ULT books are basically similar and
> Pelletier's book is apparently modeled after the first two.
> >
> > Again, given the above and my observations in me previous e-mail, I
> think that the "Justice for Judge" initiative at the Edmonton
> Theosophical Society, commendable as it is, should be seriously revised
> to reflect a more neutral stand if it wants to bear fruit, not only as
> far as the truth is concerned, but also to foster cooperation.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Govert
> >
> > cc: carlosaveline@...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: jdmsoares
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 8:05 PM
> > Subject: theos-talk Re: Justice to Judge in 2011
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Govert, Erika, Konstantin, Sufilight, friends,
> >
> > Thanks Govert.
> >
> > You are right, the Judge Case it's very important, and you give
> > pertinent suggestions.
> >
> > Also I must draw attention to you all for a fact.
> >
> > Katinka Hesselink came to some conclusions about the Judge Case in
> her
> > review of the important book written by Pelletier.
> >
> > I think we should carefully read the "Addressing the Critics of The
> > Judge Case
> >
> > " by Ernest Pelletier, published in FOHAT, Vol.X, nÂ1, 2006, pp.
> > 10-14 and 23.
> >
> > This article it is online at
> > http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_AddressCriticsTJC.htm
> > <http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_AddressCriticsTJC.htm> .
> >
> > I think the reply by Pelletier is quite enlightening as to the value
> of
> > some conclusions made by Katinka.
> >
> > Regarding to hypothetical concerns about the true motives behind
> those
> > who have request the re-open of Judge Case, I think its enough to
> remind
> > the motto of the theosophical movement:
> >
> > "There is no religion higher than truth".
> >
> > We think the theosophical movement can't be based on falsehoods.
> >
> > To those who are interested in know more facts about the "Justice to
> > Judge", I leave here a list of texts published on our website:
> >
> > "Justice to Judge in 2011" - A Student of Theosophy , at
> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=220
> > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=220> ;
> >
> > "The Truth About William Judge" - Carlos Cardoso Aveline, at
> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=29
> > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=29> ;
> >
> > "Should One Defend William Judge?" - A Student of Theosophy, at
> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=28
> > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=28> ;
> >
> > "From Mexico To India, on W. Judge" - Josà RamÃn Sordo, at
> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=27
> > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=27> ;
> >
> > "An Open Letter to India" - Will Windham, at
> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=26
> > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=26> ;
> >
> > "From Germany To India, on Justice" - Sieglinde Plocki, at
> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=25
> > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=25> ;
> >
> > "Corresponding With India On Ethics" - Carlos Cardoso Aveline,
> > at http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=24
> > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=24>
> >
> > "FOHAT And An Appeal for Justice" - A Canadian Theosophist, at
> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=23
> > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=23> ;
> >
> > "Call To Reopen Judge Case" - Leslie Price, at
> > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=8
> > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=8> .
> >
> > Best regards, Joaquim
> >
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" schuller@
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > Leslie Price should be commended for laying out the issue in a
> clear
> > and even-handed manner in his article "Call to Reopen Judge Case".
> > >
> > > What caught my eye is the following, imo, very important
> paragraph:
> > >
> > > "However, I would not want to single out Adyar in this situation.
> It
> > is but one of a number of relevant Theosophical archives. In the
> > pro-Judge TS Pasadena may be found letters of Olcott and Besant to
> > Judge, the diaries of Judge, and the letters of the Mahatmas to
> Judge
> > which featured in the Case. Someone might suggest the TS Pasadena
> was
> > suppressing evidence of Judge's guilt."
> > >
> > > Probably most Theosophists either don't know about the Judge Case
> or
> > are indifferent about it, or leave it alone because it is so
> complex,
> > but for some it's a very important issue. Personnally I'm
> interested,
> > but not to the extent to purchase the $95 book The Judge Case - A
> > Conspiracy Which Ruined the Theosophical Cause by Pelletier and go
> > through its 984 pages. Katinka Hesselink did and came to the
> following
> > conclusions in her review of the book:
> > >
> > > "Was W.Q. Judge conspired against? Did Annie Besant become
> magnetized
> > to trust in Brahmin-hinduism too much? Did Olcott lose touch with
> the
> > Mahatmas? I don't know. Unfortunately The Judge Case ignores much of
> the
> > material that has been gathered in the magazine Theosophical History
> > over the years, making it necessary for the present reviewer to look
> > them up personally. The letter by Blavatsky, the article by
> Spierenburg
> > and the testimony of Wachtmeister taken together pull the rug under
> most
> > of Pelletier's thesis and minor points. I have only gone into the
> main
> > issues here. The result of the Judge case was in all events the
> split up
> > of the Theosophical Society and with that starting point, the
> movement
> > shattered ultimately into far more fragments. Whatever his mistakes,
> the
> > literature Judge produced stands as a monument to his theosophical
> > insight even now. As this case is still a dividing point between the
> > various theosophical groups, it is unfortunate that a more impartial
> > hearing wasn't produced. Still, TJC pulls together pieces of
> evidence
> > and details from Judge's life that have been hard to find otherwise.
> The
> > serious student of theosophical history can't do without this book."
> > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/judgecasereviewbykatinka.htm
> > >
> > > Given all of the above and Price's observation that both Ernest
> > Pelletier, who compiled The Judge Case, and Carlos Aveline, who
> wrote
> > the open letter "A Call to Action" to Adyar, could be considered
> > "hostile" critics of Adyar, I think the move towards resolution and
> > reconciliation of and around the Judge Case might be helped by the
> > following actions:
> > >
> > > 1) A new, truly neutral letter with the request to open any and
> all
> > relevant archives should be composed. Mr. Aveline's letter already
> takes
> > the position that Judge was innocent and Besant guilty and basically
> > demands Adyar to admit that.
> > > http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_justice.htm
> > >
> > > 2) The letter should be addressed to all the relevant archives and
> > organizations.
> > >
> > > 3) The "Justice for Judge" initiative at the Edmonton Theosophical
> > Society could be structured as a committee with representatives of
> the
> > different organizations, preferrably scholars, and chaired by a
> neutral
> > scholar like James Santucci, the editor of Theosophical History, in
> > which findings and documents could be published.
> > >
> > > Don't know if this helps, but it makes sense to me.
> > >
> > > Govert Schuller
> > >
> > > cc: carlosaveline@
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: jdmsoares
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:17 AM
> > > Subject: theos-talk Re: Justice to Judge in 2011
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Erica, MKR, friends,
> > >
> > > Thanks Erica. You are right.
> > >
> > > For those who haven't read yet I will take the liberty to share
> here
> > > an important text by Leslie Price, entitled "Call to Reopen Judge
> > > Case".
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Joaquim
> > >
> > > 0000000000000000000000000
> > > Call To Reopen Judge Case
> > >
> > > Notes by the Way
> > >
> > > Leslie Price
> > >
> > > 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Reproduced from
> > PSYPIONEER
> > > bulletin,Volume 2, No 4; April 2006, pp. 91-92. Mr.Leslie Price is
> a
> > > well-known British historianof the Theosophical Movement. In the
> > > 1980s, hefounded the magazine "Theosophical History".
> > > 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> > > Let's summarise, and then comment on a recent Theosophical
> > development.
> > >
> > > A Brazilian Theosophist has called on the Adyar-based Theosophical
> > > Society to reopen the case of one of its founders, later its
> > American
> > > leader, William Quan Judge (1851-1896). In 1894, Judge was accused
> > of
> > > misusing the name of and handwriting of the Mahatmas, the advanced
> > men
> > > believed to have inspired the formation of the Society. This led
> to
> > a
> > > schism among Theosophists which persists to this day. The United
> > Lodge
> > > of Theosophists, the T.S. Pasadena, and the independent Edmonton
> > > Theosophical Society (Alberta, Canada) are among groups supporting
> > > Judge.
> > > In a letter published in the Edmonton journal Fohat (Spring 2006)
> > Carlos
> > > Cardoso Aveline suggests that "independent students could write
> > > annual, open letters to the Adyar Theosophical Society asking it
> to
> > > re-examine its 'process' moved against William Q. Judge in 1894-5
> > and
> > > suggesting that its leaders should either show proofs of his guilt
> > or
> > > declare him innocent of any charges whatsoever." This letter also
> > > appears on the Edmonton web site
> > > http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_justice.htm
> > > <http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_justice.htm> In June 2004
> the
> > > Edmonton Society published a 1000 page book "The Judge Case: a
> > > conspiracy which ruined the Theosophical Cause" by Ernest
> Pelletier
> > > which printed much relevant documentation. However in an Addendum
> to
> > the
> > > "Supplement" to this book, Pelletier charged that the Adyar
> > > Society was withholding relevant documentation, in order to
> preserve
> > the
> > > impression that Judge was guilty.In his letter, Aveline draws
> > attention
> > > to the 1885 case of H.P.Blavatsky who was also accused as a fraud
> -
> > in
> > > this case by the SPR. In April 1986, however, the SPR (which has
> no
> > > collective views) published in its Journal a paper by a senior
> > member,
> > > Dr Vernon Harrison, which was highly critical of the previous
> > findings.
> > > An SPR press release made Dr Harrison's new investigation widely
> > known.
> > > 0000000 Now, does the Blavatsky /SPR case offer lessons for the
> > Judge
> > > Case? I believe it does. The SPR had been asked to make available
> > its
> > > surviving documentation about the Blavatsky investigation by
> Walter
> > > Carrithers ( pseudonym Adlai Waterman ) and it did so about 1960.
> > > Carrithers could be regarded as a hostile critic, in much the same
> > way
> > > as Aveline or Pelletier could be regarded as hostile, but the
> > material
> > > was made available anyway, and it circulated in photocopied or
> > microfilm
> > > form among theosophical historians, before bearing fruit. (It
> > revealed,
> > > incidentally, that Blavatsky had produced bell phenomena in the
> > presence
> > > of members of the investigating committee, but this had been
> deleted
> > at
> > > proof stage of a report. The written decision to delete had
> > survived.)
> > > 91 Later the SPR, after putting Dr Harrison's paper through its
> > normal
> > > review procedure, published it and publicised it. Not all members
> of
> > the
> > > SPR agreed with Dr Harrison, just as not all agreed with the
> > original
> > > Blavatsky report. But the sting of the mutual antipathy which had
> > > sometimes characterised SPR/TS relations since 1885 was drawn.
> Does
> > the
> > > TS Adyar have any documents which would assist the defenders, or
> for
> > > that matter, the critics, of Judge? In the same issue of Fohat,
> > > Pelletier points to at least one relevant letter (Judge to
> > Khandalavala
> > > Sept. 17 1884) of which he has a photocopy, but which he suspects
> > may
> > > have been tampered with in the original. And he has been told by
> > Adyar
> > > people of other relevant material at Adyar. Any new material could
> > be
> > > published in a suitable place, like the quarterly journal
> > > "Theosophical History." In due course, "The Theosophist"
> > > (Adyar's main journal) could carry one of more articles by senior
> > > Theosophists of various views and organisations, drawing lessons
> > from
> > > the case, in the light of what we now know. This might go some way
> > to
> > > healing the wounds of the schism. However, I would not want to
> > single
> > > out Adyar in this situation. It is but one of a number of relevant
> > > Theosophical archives. In the pro-Judge TS Pasadena may be found
> > letters
> > > of Olcott and Besant to Judge, the diaries of Judge, and the
> letters
> > of
> > > the Mahatmas to Judge which featured in the Case. Someone might
> > suggest
> > > the TS Pasadena was suppressing evidence of Judge's guilt. In fact
> > all
> > > archives, by preserving documentation, are performing a vital
> > service.
> > > It would be useful now to move beyond charges and for all parties
> to
> > > work together to get all relevant documentation into the scholarly
> > > domain. Beyond this Case, Judge was not only a profound
> Theosophical
> > > thinker, whose writings merit study, but also a witness to a
> variety
> > of
> > > HPB phenomena - and a severe critic of the American psychic scene
> of
> > his
> > > time. LESLIE PRICE
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


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