Theos-Talk Archives (April 2011 Message tt00073)

Dear Joaquim,

Just for the right order, and not looking for an argument:

I'm merely stating that a) Pelletier did not address sufficiently the points made by Brett Forray and b) that the books referenced to in the Aveline letter are not to be taken as objective, as informative as they are.  

It all boils down imo to applying a measure of discrimination between the facts and the interpretation of the facts within a certain ideological or metaphysical theory. It's about the difference between the viewpoint of the believer (the emic view) and that of the neutral investigator (the etic view). Most people treat their convictions as facts and present them as such. Theosophists not excluded. 

BTW, I requested Santucci to release the review for all to read. 

Best

Govert

 



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jdmsoares 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 7:07 PM
  Subject: theos-talk Re: Justice to Judge in 2011


    

  Dear Govert, all friends,

  While not wanting to enter in any personal exchange of arguments, I must
  say the following:

  Ernest Pelliter himself wrote a commentary about the review made by
  Brett Forray. Once again, you can read Pelliter commentary at
  http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_AddressCriticsTJC.htm
  <http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_AddressCriticsTJC.htm> .

  Allow me to recommend reading the following text published in our
  websites:

  Corresponding With India On Ethics

  Two Letters to Mrs. Radha Burnier, One from Her

  The direct links are: http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=24
  <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=24> and 
  http://www.filosofiaesoterica.com/ler.php?id=231
  <http://www.filosofiaesoterica.com/ler.php?id=231> .

  In the text, one can read in a letter to Radha Burnier, dated April
  2006, the following:

  "So my respectful request to you - which I intend to renew in
  the years ahead if necessary - is that, as a sign of respect for
  truth and for the theosophical movement, the Theosophical Society,
  Adyar, re-examine the Judge Case and show any proofs of his guilt -
  or else declare him innocent. It will be also very important that all
  information and documents referring to the Judge Case be made available
  to independent researchers.

  That will mean indeed a significant contribution to the mutual
  understanding between the different groups and institutions of the
  theosophical movement as a whole.

  The search for truth, truthfulness and mutual respect are parts of our
  common ground."

  Thus we can see that already in 2006 it had been asked to the President
  of the Adyar Society that the archives could be opened and "all
  information and documents referring to the Judge Case be made available
  to independent researchers."

  Finally, the "Justice to Judge" initiative is promoted by
  INDEPENDENT STUDENTS from various countries, as it is very clearly
  expressed in the text "Justice to Judge in 2011 - The Sixth Year
  of Open Letters to India <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=220>
  ":

  "For the sixth time since April 2006, independent students from
  various countries will be sending on 13 April 2011 a number of open
  letters to the President of the Adyar Theosophical Society, Ms. Radha
  Burnier. The headquarters of the Society is in Chennai, India.

  The students will be asking her to help stop a century old injustice by
  re-examining the Adyar "Case" against Mr. William Q. Judge.
  Those who have an interest in the future of the theosophical movement
  are invited to join the initiative, which is a celebration of its
  dynamic unity.

  Restoring justice with regard to William Judge does more than showing
  that Adyar Society cares about Ethics and Truth. It gives a large
  portion of the movement a better chance to benefit from the example of
  Judge's life and from the wisdom present in his books. It opens the
  way to a more intense life of the theosophical effort, by promoting a
  better knowledge of its history and by destroying the illusion of
  separateness. It stimulates the perception that the movement as a whole
  is in fact one single magnetic field; that such an aura or energy-field
  has a center; and that its living center is related to the
  "blood" - the skandhas and magnetism donated by its main
  Founders.

  This is what is really important.

  I invite you all to join the initiative, which is a celebration of the
  dynamic unity of the theosophical movement.

  More information see: "Justice to Judge in 2011 - The Sixth Year
  of Open Letters to India <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=220>
  ".

  Best regards, Joaquim

  --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...>
  wrote:
  >
  > Dear Joaquim,
  >
  > Thank you for linking to Pelletier's response to the reviewers of his
  book The Judge Case.
  >
  > I re-read Brett Forray's review in Theosophical History XI/2. Though I
  have not read The Judge Case it looks to me that Forray's review is
  even-handed, informative and critical of Pelletier in a very reasonable
  way. His main contention is that Pelletier's book "is solely intended to
  exonerate Mr. Judge's role in this drama" and that it "makes no attempt
  to impartially portray the many-sided views of this period."
  Unfortunately Pelletier's response misses many of the points Forray
  makes. If possible Forray's review should be made available for those
  interested to see for themselves.
  >
  > Important to the "Justice to Judge" campaign is Forray's call to have
  someone send over to Madras or Mumbai to inspect the crucial Judge to
  Khandalava letter of September 1884.
  >
  > Your list with on-line items is interesting, but misses a good article
  giving a neutral synopsis of the controversy. So far the most helpful
  historical rendering of the case comes from the historian Arthur
  Nethercot in his The Last Four Lives of Annie Besant, chapter 2 "The
  Judging of Judge." Neither camp will be happy with his presentation, but
  it seems the best so far.
  >
  > Especially one observation by Nethercot, tucked away in a footnote, is
  I think pertinent to evaluating both Pelletier's book and Carlos
  Aveline's "Call to Action" and that is his statement that the books The
  Theosophical Movement 1875-1925 and its revision (or update) "appear to
  be non-partisan in viewpoint, but are actually strongly biased towards
  Judge and the Theosophical groups which followed him in splitting from
  the main T.S." (p. 26) According to Forray, Pelletier relied
  particularly on the narrative provided by these books from the ULT,
  and--apparently so acknowledged in Pelletier's introduction--a synopsis
  of the period provided by a ULT member gave Pelletier "the model for his
  own outline of The Judge Case." The importance is that Aveline's, in
  principle commendable "Call to Action" is premised on the idea that "In
  fact, the 19th century process of unfair persecution against Judge
  within the Adyar Theosophical Society is very well documented in various
  books" (refering to the two ULT books and The Judge Case), giving the
  false impression as if these were objective, independent, non-related
  studies, while in reality the two ULT books are basically similar and
  Pelletier's book is apparently modeled after the first two.
  >
  > Again, given the above and my observations in me previous e-mail, I
  think that the "Justice for Judge" initiative at the Edmonton
  Theosophical Society, commendable as it is, should be seriously revised
  to reflect a more neutral stand if it wants to bear fruit, not only as
  far as the truth is concerned, but also to foster cooperation.
  >
  > Best
  >
  > Govert
  >
  > cc: carlosaveline@...
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: jdmsoares
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 8:05 PM
  > Subject: theos-talk Re: Justice to Judge in 2011
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > Dear Govert, Erika, Konstantin, Sufilight, friends,
  >
  > Thanks Govert.
  >
  > You are right, the Judge Case it's very important, and you give
  > pertinent suggestions.
  >
  > Also I must draw attention to you all for a fact.
  >
  > Katinka Hesselink came to some conclusions about the Judge Case in
  her
  > review of the important book written by Pelletier.
  >
  > I think we should carefully read the "Addressing the Critics of The
  > Judge Case
  >
  > " by Ernest Pelletier, published in FOHAT, Vol.X, nº1, 2006, pp.
  > 10-14 and 23.
  >
  > This article it is online at
  > http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_AddressCriticsTJC.htm
  > <http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_AddressCriticsTJC.htm> .
  >
  > I think the reply by Pelletier is quite enlightening as to the value
  of
  > some conclusions made by Katinka.
  >
  > Regarding to hypothetical concerns about the true motives behind
  those
  > who have request the re-open of Judge Case, I think its enough to
  remind
  > the motto of the theosophical movement:
  >
  > "There is no religion higher than truth".
  >
  > We think the theosophical movement can't be based on falsehoods.
  >
  > To those who are interested in know more facts about the "Justice to
  > Judge", I leave here a list of texts published on our website:
  >
  > "Justice to Judge in 2011" - A Student of Theosophy , at
  > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=220
  > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=220> ;
  >
  > "The Truth About William Judge" - Carlos Cardoso Aveline, at
  > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=29
  > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=29> ;
  >
  > "Should One Defend William Judge?" - A Student of Theosophy, at
  > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=28
  > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=28> ;
  >
  > "From Mexico To India, on W. Judge" - José Ramón Sordo, at
  > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=27
  > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=27> ;
  >
  > "An Open Letter to India" - Will Windham, at
  > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=26
  > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=26> ;
  >
  > "From Germany To India, on Justice" - Sieglinde Plocki, at
  > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=25
  > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=25> ;
  >
  > "Corresponding With India On Ethics" - Carlos Cardoso Aveline,
  > at http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=24
  > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=24>
  >
  > "FOHAT And An Appeal for Justice" - A Canadian Theosophist, at
  > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=23
  > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=23> ;
  >
  > "Call To Reopen Judge Case" - Leslie Price, at
  > http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=8
  > <http://www.theosophyonline.com/ler.php?id=8> .
  >
  > Best regards, Joaquim
  >
  > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" schuller@
  > wrote:
  > >
  > > Dear all,
  > >
  > > Leslie Price should be commended for laying out the issue in a
  clear
  > and even-handed manner in his article "Call to Reopen Judge Case".
  > >
  > > What caught my eye is the following, imo, very important
  paragraph:
  > >
  > > "However, I would not want to single out Adyar in this situation.
  It
  > is but one of a number of relevant Theosophical archives. In the
  > pro-Judge TS Pasadena may be found letters of Olcott and Besant to
  > Judge, the diaries of Judge, and the letters of the Mahatmas to
  Judge
  > which featured in the Case. Someone might suggest the TS Pasadena
  was
  > suppressing evidence of Judge's guilt."
  > >
  > > Probably most Theosophists either don't know about the Judge Case
  or
  > are indifferent about it, or leave it alone because it is so
  complex,
  > but for some it's a very important issue. Personnally I'm
  interested,
  > but not to the extent to purchase the $95 book The Judge Case - A
  > Conspiracy Which Ruined the Theosophical Cause by Pelletier and go
  > through its 984 pages. Katinka Hesselink did and came to the
  following
  > conclusions in her review of the book:
  > >
  > > "Was W.Q. Judge conspired against? Did Annie Besant become
  magnetized
  > to trust in Brahmin-hinduism too much? Did Olcott lose touch with
  the
  > Mahatmas? I don't know. Unfortunately The Judge Case ignores much of
  the
  > material that has been gathered in the magazine Theosophical History
  > over the years, making it necessary for the present reviewer to look
  > them up personally. The letter by Blavatsky, the article by
  Spierenburg
  > and the testimony of Wachtmeister taken together pull the rug under
  most
  > of Pelletier's thesis and minor points. I have only gone into the
  main
  > issues here. The result of the Judge case was in all events the
  split up
  > of the Theosophical Society and with that starting point, the
  movement
  > shattered ultimately into far more fragments. Whatever his mistakes,
  the
  > literature Judge produced stands as a monument to his theosophical
  > insight even now. As this case is still a dividing point between the
  > various theosophical groups, it is unfortunate that a more impartial
  > hearing wasn't produced. Still, TJC pulls together pieces of
  evidence
  > and details from Judge's life that have been hard to find otherwise.
  The
  > serious student of theosophical history can't do without this book."
  > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/judgecasereviewbykatinka.htm
  > >
  > > Given all of the above and Price's observation that both Ernest
  > Pelletier, who compiled The Judge Case, and Carlos Aveline, who
  wrote
  > the open letter "A Call to Action" to Adyar, could be considered
  > "hostile" critics of Adyar, I think the move towards resolution and
  > reconciliation of and around the Judge Case might be helped by the
  > following actions:
  > >
  > > 1) A new, truly neutral letter with the request to open any and
  all
  > relevant archives should be composed. Mr. Aveline's letter already
  takes
  > the position that Judge was innocent and Besant guilty and basically
  > demands Adyar to admit that.
  > > http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_justice.htm
  > >
  > > 2) The letter should be addressed to all the relevant archives and
  > organizations.
  > >
  > > 3) The "Justice for Judge" initiative at the Edmonton Theosophical
  > Society could be structured as a committee with representatives of
  the
  > different organizations, preferrably scholars, and chaired by a
  neutral
  > scholar like James Santucci, the editor of Theosophical History, in
  > which findings and documents could be published.
  > >
  > > Don't know if this helps, but it makes sense to me.
  > >
  > > Govert Schuller
  > >
  > > cc: carlosaveline@
  > >
  > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > From: jdmsoares
  > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  > > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 9:17 AM
  > > Subject: theos-talk Re: Justice to Judge in 2011
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > Dear Erica, MKR, friends,
  > >
  > > Thanks Erica. You are right.
  > >
  > > For those who haven't read yet I will take the liberty to share
  here
  > > an important text by Leslie Price, entitled "Call to Reopen Judge
  > > Case".
  > >
  > > Best regards,
  > >
  > > Joaquim
  > >
  > > 0000000000000000000000000
  > > Call To Reopen Judge Case
  > >
  > > Notes by the Way
  > >
  > > Leslie Price
  > >
  > > 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Reproduced from
  > PSYPIONEER
  > > bulletin,Volume 2, No 4; April 2006, pp. 91-92. Mr.Leslie Price is
  a
  > > well-known British historianof the Theosophical Movement. In the
  > > 1980s, hefounded the magazine "Theosophical History".
  > > 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
  > > Let's summarise, and then comment on a recent Theosophical
  > development.
  > >
  > > A Brazilian Theosophist has called on the Adyar-based Theosophical
  > > Society to reopen the case of one of its founders, later its
  > American
  > > leader, William Quan Judge (1851-1896). In 1894, Judge was accused
  > of
  > > misusing the name of and handwriting of the Mahatmas, the advanced
  > men
  > > believed to have inspired the formation of the Society. This led
  to
  > a
  > > schism among Theosophists which persists to this day. The United
  > Lodge
  > > of Theosophists, the T.S. Pasadena, and the independent Edmonton
  > > Theosophical Society (Alberta, Canada) are among groups supporting
  > > Judge.
  > > In a letter published in the Edmonton journal Fohat (Spring 2006)
  > Carlos
  > > Cardoso Aveline suggests that "independent students could write
  > > annual, open letters to the Adyar Theosophical Society asking it
  to
  > > re-examine its 'process' moved against William Q. Judge in 1894-5
  > and
  > > suggesting that its leaders should either show proofs of his guilt
  > or
  > > declare him innocent of any charges whatsoever." This letter also
  > > appears on the Edmonton web site
  > > http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_justice.htm
  > > <http://www.theosophycanada.com/fohat_justice.htm> In June 2004
  the
  > > Edmonton Society published a 1000 page book "The Judge Case: a
  > > conspiracy which ruined the Theosophical Cause" by Ernest
  Pelletier
  > > which printed much relevant documentation. However in an Addendum
  to
  > the
  > > "Supplement" to this book, Pelletier charged that the Adyar
  > > Society was withholding relevant documentation, in order to
  preserve
  > the
  > > impression that Judge was guilty.In his letter, Aveline draws
  > attention
  > > to the 1885 case of H.P.Blavatsky who was also accused as a fraud
  -
  > in
  > > this case by the SPR. In April 1986, however, the SPR (which has
  no
  > > collective views) published in its Journal a paper by a senior
  > member,
  > > Dr Vernon Harrison, which was highly critical of the previous
  > findings.
  > > An SPR press release made Dr Harrison's new investigation widely
  > known.
  > > 0000000 Now, does the Blavatsky /SPR case offer lessons for the
  > Judge
  > > Case? I believe it does. The SPR had been asked to make available
  > its
  > > surviving documentation about the Blavatsky investigation by
  Walter
  > > Carrithers ( pseudonym Adlai Waterman ) and it did so about 1960.
  > > Carrithers could be regarded as a hostile critic, in much the same
  > way
  > > as Aveline or Pelletier could be regarded as hostile, but the
  > material
  > > was made available anyway, and it circulated in photocopied or
  > microfilm
  > > form among theosophical historians, before bearing fruit. (It
  > revealed,
  > > incidentally, that Blavatsky had produced bell phenomena in the
  > presence
  > > of members of the investigating committee, but this had been
  deleted
  > at
  > > proof stage of a report. The written decision to delete had
  > survived.)
  > > 91 Later the SPR, after putting Dr Harrison's paper through its
  > normal
  > > review procedure, published it and publicised it. Not all members
  of
  > the
  > > SPR agreed with Dr Harrison, just as not all agreed with the
  > original
  > > Blavatsky report. But the sting of the mutual antipathy which had
  > > sometimes characterised SPR/TS relations since 1885 was drawn.
  Does
  > the
  > > TS Adyar have any documents which would assist the defenders, or
  for
  > > that matter, the critics, of Judge? In the same issue of Fohat,
  > > Pelletier points to at least one relevant letter (Judge to
  > Khandalavala
  > > Sept. 17 1884) of which he has a photocopy, but which he suspects
  > may
  > > have been tampered with in the original. And he has been told by
  > Adyar
  > > people of other relevant material at Adyar. Any new material could
  > be
  > > published in a suitable place, like the quarterly journal
  > > "Theosophical History." In due course, "The Theosophist"
  > > (Adyar's main journal) could carry one of more articles by senior
  > > Theosophists of various views and organisations, drawing lessons
  > from
  > > the case, in the light of what we now know. This might go some way
  > to
  > > healing the wounds of the schism. However, I would not want to
  > single
  > > out Adyar in this situation. It is but one of a number of relevant
  > > Theosophical archives. In the pro-Judge TS Pasadena may be found
  > letters
  > > of Olcott and Besant to Judge, the diaries of Judge, and the
  letters
  > of
  > > the Mahatmas to Judge which featured in the Case. Someone might
  > suggest
  > > the TS Pasadena was suppressing evidence of Judge's guilt. In fact
  > all
  > > archives, by preserving documentation, are performing a vital
  > service.
  > > It would be useful now to move beyond charges and for all parties
  to
  > > work together to get all relevant documentation into the scholarly
  > > domain. Beyond this Case, Judge was not only a profound
  Theosophical
  > > thinker, whose writings merit study, but also a witness to a
  variety
  > of
  > > HPB phenomena - and a severe critic of the American psychic scene
  of
  > his
  > > time. LESLIE PRICE
  > >
  > >
  > >
  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >

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