Theos-Talk Archives (February 2011 Message tt00066)

Of course, there is NO WAY that the Chinese could possibly prevent H.H. the Dalai Lama (see http://www.dalailama.com/ , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_Lama , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Dalai_Lama ,  from reincarnating, if/when he wants to, whether by law or military force, because be could simply be born into one of the many Tibetan Buddhist communities outside China or Chinese-occupied Tibet.

BTW, I think I remember hearing somewhere that H.H. the Dalai Lama said that if he dies in exile, he would be reincarnated in exile, but if he dies in Tibet, he would be reincarnated in Tibet. It is is looking increasingly unlikely that he will die in Tibet, he being already 75, although 
his horoscope (sunrise, 6 a.m., Amdo, Tibet, 6th July 1935) indicates 
that he has the potential to live MUCH longer. As with the 13th Dalai Lama in the early 1930s (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thubten_Gyatso,_13th_Dalai_Lama ), not long before he dies, he would leave signs as to where to look for the rebirth of his next incarnation, if he intends so returning.

Also, the young 17th Karmapa Lama (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmapa , http://www.kagyuoffice.org/karmapa.htm , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogyen_Trinley_Dorje , http://www.khandro.net/Karmapas.htm ), now at Dharamsala, India, is supposed to be third in the Tibetan Buddhist spiritual hierarchy, after the Dalai Lama, and the 11th Panchen (or Tashi) Lama. The latter, after being reborn in Tibet in 1990 following the death of the 10th in 1989 at age 51 (suddenly at Shigatse in Tibet where he had been installed as a puppet by the Chinese, after giving a speech criticizing the Chinese), was taken prisoner at age 6 by the Chinese, and has disappeared and possibly been murdered; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panchen_Lama , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gedhun_Choekyi_Nyima , http://www.freepanchenlama.org/ ,  http://www.rangzen.com/pl/gcnbio.html , http://www.freetibet.org/campaigns/political-prisoner-panchen-lama , http://www.panchen-lama.com/ .

What do you think of the recent allegations that the 17th Karmapa Lama might in fact be a spy for China? His escape from Tibet through Nepal over the Himalayas in 1999, at the age of 14 (he was born on 26th June 1985 following the death of the 16th in 1981), was under dramatic circumstances, making world headlines; but the ease of it is somewhat suspicious because Chinese border security on Tibet's borders, at least since the 1990s, has lately been much tighter than it was in 1959 when the Dalai Lama escaped from Tibet near the eastern end of the border with India. It is looking even murkier because there is a rival Karmapa Lama, born in 1983 and officially endorsed by the Chinese (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaye_Dorje , http://www.karmapa.org ), who has set up shop in New Delhi.

See for the latest news, particularly about the Karmapa's cash : 
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/karmapa-money-trail-dalai-lama-backs-probe-into-possible-negligence-82365
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/10/karmapa-lama-cash-beijing-chinese
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/jaipur/Nothing-wrong-with-Karmapas-money/articleshow/7490536.cms
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story/129928/india/hp-govt-acquires-gyuto-monastery-land.html
http://www.sify.com/news/himachal-govt-to-take-over-karmapa-monastery-news-national-lcprEjgbicd.html


John W.


--- On Tue, 15/2/11, <...........@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: <..........l@z_s3MfXgEpt4cP14ZnoI6rwFe3-Gf1yr06b3-NUzyT6cbetsa8mz8QlY4f8NJCClZYSeEzY.yahoo.invalid>
Subject: theos-talk
 Re: New Chinese Law Banning Dalai Lama Reincarnation
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 15, February, 2011, 10:35 AM

Speaking about Tibetans, there are some interesting developments in the
Tibetan community in India. Never underestimate the ability of those
supposedly enlightened lamas to go nuts.

Quest for crown uncovers Tibetan politicking
http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/BA12Df01.html

The tale of two Karmapas
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EL24Ad02.html


Tibetan Buddhism the Western way
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EL25Ad05.html

China gains from India's Tibetan bungle
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/MB12Df02.html
(in 3 parts)


Excerpts from the last article:

China is looking on with a certain amount of satisfaction as India
bungles the management of a key anti-China strategic asset - the Tibetan
emigre and indigenous ethnic Tibetan Buddhist communities in north India
- with a high-profile, borderline xenophobic campaign against the
Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje, a young monk widely viewed as the
designated successor to the Dalai Lama as the symbol of Tibetan culture,
religion and national aspirations.

Indian newspapers have been filled with accusations of financial
misconduct, intention to evade currency and real estate laws, and, most
provocatively, the claim that the Karmapa is a Chinese mole, receiving
bricks of Chinese cash that he intended to use to establish a string of
pro-Chinese monasteries on the Indian side of the border.

The story of the Karmapa is also the story of violent, bloody and
ometimes fatal struggles within Tibetan Buddhism, within the Kagyu sect
itself, and the determination of India's security establishment to
control Tibetan Buddhist affairs in the sensitive border regions.

....the Dalai Lama's decidedly un-Buddhist brother, Gyalo Thondup - who
was the US Central Intelligence Agency liaison for the secret war
against the Chinese occupation of Tibet - spearheaded the creation of a
"united front" that would centralize the control of the fractious emigre
community and sects under the control of the government in exile in
Dharmsala. The other sects were apparently loathe to bow to Gelugpa
control and formed their own political organization, the "Fourteen
Settlements" group under the leadership of Gungthang Tsultrim.


In 1977, Gungthang was assassinated. His assassin allegedly told police
that he had been paid $35,000 to commit the crime by the
government-in-exile, and further alleged that he had been promised a
bounty of double that amount to kill the current Karmapa.

The situation was complicated by a split within the Kagyu sect itself
upon the death of the 16th Karmapa in 1981.The conflict boils down to
the rivalry between two Rinpoche in the Kagyu order, Tai Situ Rinpoche
and Shamar Rinpoche ("Rinpoche" is an honorific typically applied to
reincarnated lamas).

Tai Situ Rinpoche claimed to have found a secret note from the 16th
Karmapa that directed him to the boy subsequently acknowledged by the
Dalai Lama and enthroned in 1992 as Ogyen Trinley Dorje, the 17th
Karmapa.

Shamar Rinpoche had none of that, asserting that a dream led him to a
different Karmapa, one Trinley Thaye Dorje, whom he quietly brought to
India from the PRC and enthroned in 1994.


Adherents of Shamar Rinpoche consider Ogyen Trinley Dorje's
acknowledgement by the Dalai Lama as a piece of low, Gelugpa
skullduggery. An America student of Shamar Rinpoche, Erik Curren, wrote
a book on the Karmapa controversy titled "Buddha's Not Smiling". Talking
to Asia Times, Mr Curren characterized the elevation of Ogyen Trinley
Dorje as a virtual coup d'etat against the Kagyu sect by the Dalai Lama,
with the intention of elevating an easily-manipulated son of nomads to
the position of Karmapa.

Shamar Rinpoche's followers have also hinted that a neutral Rinpoche was
murdered during the trip to Tibet to find Ogyen Trinley Dorje so he
wouldn't complicate the selection process. They have also alleged that
the young man now in Dharmsala isn't even Ogyen Trinley Dorje at all.

A 1998 suit filed by a follower of Shamar Rinpoche further accused Tai
Situ Rinpoche-and the Dalai Lama and his brother-of scheming to seize
Rumtek, destabilize Sikkim, and hand it over to the Chinese.


Certainly, beyond pleasant Buddhist platitudes concerning universal
brotherhood, Tai Situ Rinpoche has made no secret of his efforts to
re-establish his position inside Tibet with the help of the Chinese
government.

He has rebuilt his traditional seat, Palpung Monastery, in western
Sichuan province. His lavish website offers gorgeous views of the
monastery and states that 300 students and 50 monks reside there.

For its part, the Chinese government appears to encourage the
establishment of Tibetan organizations overseas that are affiliated with
partisans of Tai Situ Rinpoche and promote Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the
Karmapa.


After a car belonging to an associate of the Karmapa was inspected on
January 26 (itself perhaps an indication of heightened scrutiny),
revealing a suitcase of cash, the Karmapa's residence - the Gyuto
Tantric Buddhist and University - was raided. The eager Indian press was
deluged with information concerning the suspicious mounds of cash -
allegedly worth US$1 million if the face value of supposedly counterfeit
rupees was counted - found in the residence, including the equivalent of
over one hundred thousand US dollars in yuan notes.

The anti-Karmapa wind in the Indian press continued with the Times of
India reporting that crucial medical records - that might have revealed
the Karmapa as an over-age imposter - had vanished.

India's The Telegraph provided the insinuations-or trial balloons - from
inside the Indian government concerning the Karmapa's possible arrest
and deportation as a Chinese "agent of influence." 

 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: theos-talk New Chinese Law Banning Dalai Lama Reincarnation
        	 Tuesday, 15 February, 2011 3:47 AM 
From: <...............@aol.com>
To:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

      This is a little bit like Russia banning religion. Religion 
just went underground, and the people kept their faith and their 
churches, alive anyway.. You cannot control a people's heart and mind, or
 their will, just their overt actions. 

-----Original Message-----

From: ................@gmail.com>
To: theos-talk <theos-talk@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Feb 14, 2011 8:38 am
Subject: theos-talk New Chinese Law Banning Dalai Lama Reincarnation

An interesting development regarding Tibet. Chinese Govt is trying to take
control of Tibetans by taking over an issue that is close to the heart of
all Tibetans. Read the full story at:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/New-Chinese-law-banning-Dalai-Lama-reincarnation-aimed-at-wiping-out-Tibetan-identity/articleshow/7495939.cms



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