Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
Oct 13, 2010 10:30 AM
by M. Sufilight
Dear Duane and friends
My views are:
I am a bit sad about your reply. I began my first e-mail in this thread with calling you my friend, and I stick to that. I do hope you understand me when I emphasize this. I will as a friend seek to answer your - inserted - remarks about me and my views in the below.
I take this exchange to be about whether the Morya Federation is a genuine Esoterical School or just a semi-Esoterical School or perhaps a wellmeant but somewhat false one.
I tend to follow a view somewhere between the last and the second one.
1.
Duane wrote:
"(This is a good and healthy position to take. Skepticism is important and I
honor what you say)."
M. Sufilight says:
Thanks.
2.
Duane wrote:
(I can only say this school offers training as a preparatory esoteric school and
one cannot understand its value unless they participate in it for some time.)
M. Sufilight says:
Thanks. But from reading the content on http://www.moryafederation.net/ , I reached the conclusion, that those who were behind it seemed - because of the web-page formulations - to be claiming a continous contact with the Trans-Himalayan Masters and their wisdom.
Your words make we view the content of the website in a different manner, and make me conclude that the content might not be very precise in the manner it has been forwarded with regard to its level of claimed contact with the Trans-Himalayan Masters and their wisdom. Do you follow me view here?
I merely quite friendly wonder if the people behind http://www.moryafederation.net/ actually know what the wisdom of the Trans-Himalayan Masters really are - they seem to claim that they do know about it.
3.
Duane wrote:
(It has no rules as you understand the term and its constitution and what it is
attempting to do is clearly outlined in its introductory statements you have
already read. There are no pledges but hoped for at some point.)
M. Sufilight says:
Thanks. I will have to say, that I find its constitution to be remarkably thin and lack certain important content, which ordinarily is forwarded in esoterical school of such a kind. It is not clearly stated, how such a group relate itself to dogmas versus primary emphasis on one single author and the "bible-study" of this author, (this can be compared with The Original Programe of the Theosophical Society (BCW, Vol. VII, p. 145 - "To oppose materialism and theological dogmatism in every possible way" and The Constitution of the Theosophical Society, 1891: "No Fellow, Officer, or Council of the Theosophical Society, or of any Section or Branch thereof, shall promulgate or maintain any doctrinas being that advanced, or advocated by the Society.")
- Even H. P. Blavatsky's Esoteric Section followed this main study:
"Works on metaphysics and articles expounding the teachings of our Special School should be procured. The following books and theosophical magazines should be especially attended to:ââ
âThe Secret Doctrine.â
âPatanjaliâs Yoga Philosophy.â
âThe Bhagavad-Gita.â âThe Theosophist.â
âLight on the Path.â âLucifer.â
âThe Path.â
This rule is not intended to force members into the purchase of these books and magazines, but the undersigned has no time to copy extracts, giving explanations that have already appeared in print. Much has been already published, and it will be necessary to refer very often to such matter, and if a member is actually unable to procure the publications referred to, it is expected that others who are able will, upon request, furnish the desired book or a copy of the matter referred to. And herein the plea of povertyââif a pretenceââwill be as prejudicial to the student as any other vice." (BCW, Vol. XII, p. 497)
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v12/y1890_052.htm
I will call that a much more open focus, and a focus not requiring people to purchase any books so to participate in the Esoteric Section. Maybe the people behind http://www.moryafederation.net/ , aught to do a better effort here, if they want to be really Esoterical in their views - and then go and tell people about which books are required to be purchased and which not, now they already have forwarded what teachings are of primary emphasis. (It is merely a friendly proposal.) However, in my view, no single author are more important than another author; one aught to know quality teaching when it is forwarded. It is not the last published books which necessarily aught to have primary emphasis in such a School. Let the teachers learn from the students. The Teacher who are unable to do that are either ignorant or allknowing. But all this are just my views, and I might err.
4.
Duane wrote:
(You are seeking intellectual information and justification when it is a deeper
subjective experience most students are attempting to find).
M. Sufilight says:
What are these students attempting to find?
If it is unimportant to ask about what kind of pledge or Constitution, one aught to follow - I will have to ask the people behind the group: Why, then write any introduction to the School at all?
I find it important to know if I am joining a genuine Esoteric School or just one of the many spurious ones, which are so prevalent - these days - among the various sub-branches of claimed theosophy and even claimed esoterical teachings.
5.
Duane wrote:
(Why should any students come forward to name themselves? Have you made a formal
inquiry to the school directly yourself demanding their names? The fact that you
denigrate hardworking students who you have never met or conversed with and
whose primary goal is on service as âscared chickensâ is ludicrous and only
reveals your immaturity and prejudices.
Why would you want to work with others you have so easily classified as âscared
chickensâ "
M. Sufilight says:
Let us be calm Duane. I just asked a question and nothing else.
Why indeed should they not come forward and tell who they are. Why hide?
I do not think I denigrate anyone. I am merely asking questions seeking the truth about, what this Morya Federation really are and its level of contact it claims to have with the Trans-Himalayan Masters. I find this a quite natural attitude - instead of a fanatical belief stance. But, some will always seek to promote the latter. I do however not think, that you are behind something like that.
Me calling them "scared chickens" was not meant in a bad manner. So please be calm. It was written to forward the point of view, that it must seem very strange to any visitor of the website, that the persons who claim to be EXPERIENCED students of the Trans-Himalayan Masters and who want to teach other Seekers in what is called an Esoterical School (drawing a clear parallel to Blavatsky's Esoteric Section) hide their own identities. Others might for equally strange reasons find this to be quite unimportant.
6.
Duane wrote:
"Are you not just trying to support your belief that this could not be
an esoteric school since you already know AAB work is fraudulent and full of
lies?
Please lets be honest here!!!"
M. Sufilight says:
Look here. One may assume a whole lot about the motives I have with my questions and what I write in my e-mails. Another thing is to actually know, whether I am writing using my heart of compassion to the best of my abilities.
My agenda is to seek the truth about this Morya Federation. The motto of the Theosophical Society was: There is no Religion Higher than the Truth ( Satyan nasti paro dharmah).
I hold it to be better, that, one does not to begin with MERELY BELIEVING that this Morya Federation groups is a genuine Esoterical School - when one attempts to find out the truth about. There are thousands of channelers of various masters, old and new ones, floating around the Internet these days. One have to take this into account.
The main reason for doing this is the following words from the groups website:
"Sensing the pressing opportunity arising at this critical period in the history of humanity, a number of experienced students of the Trans-Himalayan Wisdom have combined forces, creating the Morya Federation to offer sincere and self-disciplining students of the Ageless Wisdom the opportunity to deepen their understanding of the Master DKâs voluminous writings"
7.
Duane wrote:
(You are inferring these students are dishonest because they do not post there
name for your benefit? If they did you would quickly claim they are all self
promoters look how cheap and public they are."
M. Sufilight says:
No. I find that you misunderstand me. Maybe my English is not the best. I was referring to that It must be strange for anyone to be taught by persons unknown. And any attempts to hide ones identity can be many only be seen as strange and even to have a bit of an unhealthy smell about it. It would as I see it be much better to be open about it like - for instance - H. P. Blavatsky was. You conclude: "If they did you would quickly claim they are all self
promoters look how cheap and public they are." - This is not true, and it is merely a false claim. - I am a Seeker after Truth, not the opposite. And my conclusions will rest upon this rock. If not, I will be in error.
8.
Duane wrote:
"I regret you will always find
flaws in other groups who are even vaguely affiliated with AAB because you have
made up your mind way before now that they are up to very little good."
M. Sufilight says:
Dear Duane. I find my self always willing to listen to anyone, who can explain to me why Alice A. Bailey's books several times without any hesitation credits D.K. to be the main person behind the Secret Doctrine written by Blavatsky, when several documents tell us the opposite. And also any other disagreements, which make me wonder what this Morya Federation really are and what kind of EXPERIENCED students of the Trans-Himalayan Masters they really are.
As I said: I am interested in the truth, not the opposite. The motto of the Theosophical Society was: There is no Religion Higher than the Truth. - My aim is to spread this as well as the Original Programe Manuscript, which was forwared to be the cornerstone of the Wisdom-Religion of humanity. This Programe is interestingly - to a certain degree - in its main the same as the one given in The Parliament of the Worlds Religions - however stripped in its aims among members from materialism, dogmas, and any presentations of Doctrinas on behalf of the Society. Each Seeker will find his or her own Truth - and based on altruism, which each member has to give its sympathy. The AAB groups in general avoid mentioning this, and the Morya Federation as well it seems.
But all the above are just my views, other Seekers might have other agendas.
9.
Duane wrote:
"You occasional pay lip service to a few of the AAB groups in some positive way but the bulk of your postings indicate she should not even be mentioned in the same breathe as HPB "
M. Sufilight says:
I do also write occasional positive remarks about certain words written in the AAB books. But I cannot find myself to be recommending them as the main teachings in an Esoteric School, when they so openly lie about the truth or confuse facts.
My main agenda is as stated to promote the Original Programe of The Theosophical Society - and not the later strange versions given after 1891, and especially since 1907. This just like Blavatsky's Esoterical Section in part aimed at doing. (BCW. Vol. XII p. 490 )
And that is also why I ask questions so that one might discover whether this Morya Federation group is a genuine Esoterical School. I do hope, that is Allright?
10.
Duane wrote:
"If you had even a rudimentary knowledge of esoteric schools historically you
would realize they do not go around proclaiming who they are but work quietly
behind the scenes."
M. Sufilight says:
I know that H. P. Blavatsky made her Esoteric Section public in the Theosophist Magazine(s) - and named that she was the one (the only one - by the help of an unnamed Master of whom she claimed to be the mouthpiece) leading the group. And she never recevied a penny for doing it - and never a penny for any of her later articles and her work, the income she received from the books was spend on keeping the Society going.
11.
Duane wrote:
(The Moray School charges no fees for their work and it is all volunteer. How
can they claim to be a legitimate esoteric school? If they did that they would
be chastised by people like you for making wild claims. If they donât make this
claim by your logic they surely are not an esoteric school. You canât have it
both ways!!!)
M. Sufilight says:
Thanks. I am very happy to learn this. But, why do they not tell people clearly about this on their website? Many AAB groups are wellknown to charge huge sums for just a minor two hour lecture or a workshop.
12.
Duane wrote:
"(Here we go back to the prejudices and criticism of something you have never
understood and so make wild claims. AAB asks each student to study the material
and come to their own conclusions. No one is asked to believe anything they
cannot prove in their own lives. If you would study the AAB material
impersonally and from the mental plane you would see its contribution. You have
obviously had some painful personal experiences and your prejudices are clearly
seated in your emotional body). "
M. Sufilight says:
I was referring to the fact that the AAB books are the MAIN teachings of the Morya Federation, and where the people behind it openly claims to be EXPERIENCED students of the Trans-Himalayan Masters. I wonder whether this is true, since none of them openly claim a daily continous contact with them.
I can clearly see the contribution the AAB books are behind. Some of it is as I see it helpful to those who as I know about the Wisdom teachings. To others they are clearly not and really a waste of time and compassion. One reason is, that they heavily promote a western mentality (by the use of vocabulary) and not a multicultural outlook upon the planet. They promote the United Nations as being guided by Arhats (the Security Counsil being an exception - and this is at least showing a bit concern, but not enough as far as my views go.) - The Original Programe of the TS never involved it self in the promotion political ideas. The AAB books promotes the spurios freemasonry grades - which was created by the Jesuits (And Foster Bailey was a Scottish Rite mason - while, as far as I know, at the same time being a Lucis Trust teacher). The AAB books promotes a physical MALE messiah to arrive in the flesh and walk among men - and call it the Christ, and eagerly ask anyone to pray for its arrival - while seeking to drag the Masters down to the physical (this in opposition to Blavatsky wise esoteric teachings about the opposite, namely that each Seeker seek to lift themselves to the levels of the Masters) - instead of giving the Divine within their own selves emphasis. (Atma=Brahman). The last doctrine, about the divine within each humans own self, is instead given a few lines and is heavily down-watered, because it cannot, it seems, be entirely omitted when one claim to follow Blavatsky's and Masters Morya's and KH's footsteps. And today many AAB groups charge huge sums for lectures these days - I find such spiritual fruits to be saddening to watch and not esoterical at all. - But maybe my portrayal is claimed to be false. I find it to be very true indeed. And I will not promote such a collection of books as the main teaching in an Esoteric School. And that is just that, at least until someone can show me something I might have overloooked. I am always open and willing to listen.
I am just stating my views. I am not like others claiming to be infallible.
13.
Duane wrote:
"(You are a very skilled artist at projecting onto others the very problems you
cannot see within yourself. Instead of sitting on the sidelines of the esoteric
criticism others you do not understand you need to get involved and contribute
something creative.
This is the same old dogma and prejudices on your behalf repackaged over and
over that you obviously just cannot see."
M. Sufilight says:
I am very much involved, however perhaps not in a manner, that you (when being honest) know about or find to be interesting.
What? Where are those dogmas you plaster me with?
Let me reformulate: I, really calmly merely asked a question or two about whether it was a healthy attitude those AAB followers had, when they forward ONLY one author as the main "bible" to study, while throwing away the Original Programe of the Theosophical Sciety, just to replant it with an AAB "Bible" book-collection? (Mary Bailey, the sister of Alice A. Bailey in fact said something against this in her book "A Learning Experience", but this is appearently not very important to emphasize.)
I do not hope, that my questions are touching your nervous system in a bad manner.
14.
Duane wrote:
"You champion yourself as chief
administrator to exspose all the limitations of all of the AAB groups. You
need to resign from that position."
M. Sufilight says:
Please Duane, let us be calm. It makes be sad to see you write something like this. Let us stay with the facts. Try by all means to document these false claims of yours. I have never in any manner what so ever claimed such things. Your remarks are quite unjustified.
Will any of you other readers help me out here?
15.
Duane wrote:
" (âBlavatsky Theosophist find AAB followers to lack self critical examinationâ
I see you now speak for the whole rank and file of Theosophist. It must be so
wonderful to so all know to be able to make such wild and unsupportive
statements.)"
M. Sufilight says:
I am sorry, I formulated myself incorrectly. I am certainly not speaking on behalf of all Theosophists. But my view is that it can be documented, that many Blavatsky theosophists are open to comparative studying on equal footing between AAB, Blavatsky, Besant, Shankara, Buddha, Tson Kha Pa and what not - whereas I most often, (and I also think many other Blavatskyan seekers do) find that AAB followers only want people to read their pet "Bible" - the AAB books - or demand it as a main teaching.
This was what I was referring to. What are your views about this? (Is silence once more the answer?)
16.
Duane wrote:
"If AAB stole all, of the Eoteric section teachings which I am sure you believe
she must have had something of value to say."
M. Sufilight says:
Please be calm Duane. I did not write any such a thing. I merely said that AAB distorted the teachings given by Blavatsky. And this is my view, and not what you plaster me with. I am telling you the truth. So you are not sure about what you wrote. - One example was when she claimed that D.K. should be given the credit for dictating The Secret Doctrine, which in fact primarily was given and written by Blavatsky and Master Morya and KH. And this can be documented.
17.
Duane wrote:
(Theosophy had hundreds of thousands of followers in the early part of last
century. Are you saying they had no wisdom?)
M. Sufilight says:
No. Try to contemplate something more positive. I am not seeking something which abviously is not right. The words I wrote have several layers of interpretation and not only one. Try to figure out all the other possible interpreations. This is one of the main ideas with such short one-liners. (Chuck the Heretic is sometimes a skilled seeker in this art, of non-dead-letter interpretations, if I may say so. - To Chuck: Be careful...Do not drop your halo. :-))
Let us not forget, that all the above are just my views.
I do not claim to be infallible.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Duane Carpenter
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
Hi Cass
You should check it out for yourself and come to your own conclusion which I am
sure you will do.
My comments to Sufilights last email is in backets. (---------)
Best Duane
http://www.moryafederation.net/
I would be more than happy to hear what is being said. However, it would need
to be via an online source.
Cass
>
>From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@UkJEN_8eOXMDo4qo2Bk-Q0PgLczHjOlkKPsp5zaRbFwHVUW1u9HsLEnc6qJb9NjmJA-Hj2DS8VWytw0XSDLUwQzuqg0.yahoo.invalid>
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wed, 13 October, 2010 3:59:35 AM
>Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
>
>
>Dear Duane and friends
>
>My views are:
>
>1.
>Duane wrote:
>"You have already laid
>out all the reasons you will not research this group. Perfect way out. They do
>not conform to all of your preconceived ideas about what an esoteric school
>should be so I cannot join. "
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>--- "all the reasons" you say? This is not true. Try to read my e-mail again.
>I openly asked some questions giving you the opportunity to make your case
>valid. And now you refuse to answer my very understandably important questions.
>
>If you are saying that anyone aught to join just any school who claims to be
>Esoterical, just because it claims to be so, I find your view to be an unhealthy
>
>one. And now, you tell me why I am wrong in my view, if you think so?
(This is a good and healthy position to take. Skepticism is important and I
honor what you say).
>So why should one join this particular Esoterical School and not another of the
>many AAB groups or non-theosophical ones? Why is this one so special?
(I can only say this school offers training as a preparatory esoteric school and
one cannot understand its value unless they participate in it for some time.)
>
>2.
>Duane wrote:
>Do you not see the impossible impasse you or others may put this opportunity
>into?
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>No, I honestly do not.
>You can answer the questions. If you do not answer them, we may all wonder why?
>
>I have for very many years not joined a group who was not able to - clearly -
>show me its Constitution and Rules!
(It has no rules as you understand the term and its constitution and what it is
attempting to do is clearly outlined in its introductory statements you have
already read. There are no pledges but hoped for at some point.)
the Pledge which need to be taken, if
>any! - And I will discourage anyone from joining such a group, calling it self
>esoterical and in contact with the the Trans-Himalayan School, when it omits
>these things.
>And now you aught to tell me whether I am wrong in my views? And if so, why?
(You are seeking intellectual information and justification when it is a deeper
subjective experience most students are attempting to find).
>
>The Morya Federation of Esoteric Schools (http://www.moryafederation.net/)
>claims the following:
>"Sensing the pressing opportunity arising at this critical period in the history
>
>of humanity, a number of experienced students of the Trans-Himalayan Wisdom have
>
>combined forces, creating the Morya Federation to offer sincere and
>self-disciplining students of the Ageless Wisdom the opportunity to deepen their
>
>understanding of the Master DKâs voluminous writings and to relate them to the
>great works of other theosophically inspired authors such as Helena Blavatsky
>(HPB), author of The Secret Doctrine; Helena Roerich, amanuensis for the Agni
>Yoga Books inspired by Master Morya, and, other significant authors in the field
>
>of philosophical esotericism."
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>Now anyone can claim this. The question is whether ALL these students will come
>forward and name themselves and not hide behind the Internet as scared
chickens?
(Why should any students come forward to name themselves? Have you made a formal
inquiry to the school directly yourself demanding their names? The fact that you
denigrate hardworking students who you have never met or conversed with and
whose primary goal is on service as âscared chickensâ is ludicrous and only
reveals your immaturity and prejudices.
Why would you want to work with others you have so easily classified as âscared
chickensâ Are you not just trying to support your belief that this could not be
an esoteric school since you already know AAB work is fraudulent and full of
lies?
Please lets be honest here!!!)
>I am not prepared to be taught by invisible no-bodies. And I think very few
>persons are! - I will have to know who those self-proclaimed students really
>are. Why not be honest about it?
(You are inferring these students are dishonest because they do not post there
name for your benefit? If they did you would quickly claim they are all self
promoters look how cheap and public they are. I regret you will always find
flaws in other groups who are even vaguely affiliated with AAB because you have
made up your mind way before now that they are up to very little good. You
occasional pay lip service to a few of the AAB groups in some positive way but
the bulk of your postings indicate she should not even be mentioned in the same
breathe as HPB
If you had even a rudimentary knowledge of esoteric schools historically you
would realize they do not go around proclaiming who they are but work quietly
behind the scenes.)
>
>It seems that the main person behind it is Michael Robbins and his wife (when we
>
>follow the bottom link to a Facebook website at the website
>http://www.moryafederation.net/.)
(If you reread the application material you would see that there are a number of
different groups from around the world who work jointly).
>
>A QUESTION:
>It is a bit new to me, that Michael Robbins claims to be in contact with the
>Himalayan Masters. Have any of you heard about this before?
(Michael Robbins only claims he is trying to do the work of the masters)
>
>The problem is as I see it the following:
>The Morya Federation of Esoteric Schools (http://www.moryafederation.net/)
>invites people to become members of its group - without - clearly stating
>whether it want money for it, - without - clearly stating whether it is a
>genuine Esoteric School - where its leader(s) have a daily continous contact
>with a Master. And without clearly stating whether it is a non-political group.
>Because, - if this group does not forward such claims - it can only be called a
>spurious Esoteric School at best. Anyone can claim to be Esoteric, but the
>question anyone will have to ask is whether we have a GENUINE School here or
>something else. Are you now saying that it is irrelevant to ask such questions?
>And are you not in your reply to me at the same time saying: Do not think, just
>JOIN US?
(The Moray School charges no fees for their work and it is all volunteer. How
can they claim to be a legitimate esoteric school? If they did that they would
be chastised by people like you for making wild claims. If they donât make this
claim by your logic they surely are not an esoteric school. You canât have it
both ways!!!)
>Duane wrote:
>"You are given an opportunity to grow spiritually and what you do is find all
>the
>
>reasons it could not possibly be a legitimate esoteric school. Paradoxically you
>
>
>will never know will you?"
>
>M. Sufilight says:
>Now, according to my book, one cannot as an honest and TRUE initiate advertize
>about meditation and service to humanity, especially when they forward the AAB
>books as something which should merely be BELIEVED (and not known or properly
>examined) to be healthy, while they completely ignore criticism - and almost
>automatically gives any critical view about the AAB books the big boot. Is this
>not the real truth? And is such a view a healthy one?
(Here we go back to the prejudices and criticism of something you have never
understood and so make wild claims. AAB asks each student to study the material
and come to their own conclusions. No one is asked to believe anything they
cannot prove in their own lives. If you would study the AAB material
impersonally and from the mental plane you would see its contribution. You have
obviously had some painful personal experiences and your prejudices are clearly
seated in your emotional body).
>
>Leaders who continuously avoid responding to honest and well meant criticism are
>
>not trustworthy. There are certain leaders who, will not listen to criticism,
>they have a bad blockage when it come to this issue. And I do now what we call
>those leaders. We call them: Narrow-minded and Blocked leaders.
(You are a very skilled artist at projecting onto others the very problems you
cannot see within yourself. Instead of sitting on the sidelines of the esoteric
criticism others you do not understand you need to get involved and contribute
something creative.
This is the same old dogma and prejudices on your behalf repackaged over and
over that you obviously just cannot see. You champion yourself as chief
administrator to exspose all the limitations of all of the AAB groups. You
need to resign from that position.)
>
>The difference I have experienced between Blavatsky theosophists and AAB
>followers is exactly this lack of self-critical examination about the AAB books
>and all other authors among AAB-followers - something Blavatsky theosophists
>find to be an unhealthy attitude on their part.
(âBlavatsky Theosophist find AAB followers to lack self critical examinationâ
I see you now speak for the whole rank and file of Theosophist. It must be so
wonderful to so all know to be able to make such wild and unsupportive
statements.)
>
>- - - - - - -
>An example is the following from the website:
>"Summary of Courses Offered From Year 2 to Year 5
>
>Descriptions of courses to be offered from Year 2 through Year 5 will be shared
>in detail with those who fill out an Application. Looking briefly at offerings
>beyond the first year, such courses, consistently advancing in depth and
>comprehensiveness, includeâ
>
>* two years of Esoteric Psychology
>* three years of Esoteric Healing
>* three years of White Magic"
>
>......etc. etc. and so on show me, that this School operates through the AAB
>books and NOT at all through an equal and open focus on the literature
>mentioned: I.e. Blavatsky (HPB), Helena Roerich, and, other significant authors
>in the field of philosophical esotericism. Not even Blavatsky's Esoteric Section
>
>operate in such a manner.
If AAB stole all, of the Eoteric section teachings which I am sure you believe
she must have had something of value to say.
(This is a perfect case of what Voltaire called âignorance in actionâ. You will
never join this group and find out the potential truth of the school but you can
criticize what it should or should not do).
>
>
>So, therefore I will not join this group.
>But if they will provide me with their Constitution and Rules - or the Pledge
>which might need to be taken I might change my mind and heart.
>
>These are just my views.
>Other seekers might join this group and put their head under their arms.
>
>- - -
>Wisdom is a scare thing. It is most often not those who have the largest number
>of followers who are the most wise ones.
(Theosophy had hundreds of thousands of followers in the early part of last
century. Are you saying they had no wisdom?)
>
>M. Sufilight
>
________________________________
From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@UkJEN_8eOXMDo4qo2Bk-Q0PgLczHjOlkKPsp5zaRbFwHVUW1u9HsLEnc6qJb9NjmJA-Hj2DS8VWytw0XSDLUwQzuqg0.yahoo.invalid>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 12:59:35 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
Dear Duane and friends
My views are:
1.
Duane wrote:
"You have already laid
out all the reasons you will not research this group. Perfect way out. They do
not conform to all of your preconceived ideas about what an esoteric school
should be so I cannot join. "
M. Sufilight says:
--- "all the reasons" you say? This is not true. Try to read my e-mail again.
I openly asked some questions giving you the opportunity to make your case
valid. And now you refuse to answer my very understandably important questions.
If you are saying that anyone aught to join just any school who claims to be
Esoterical, just because it claims to be so, I find your view to be an unhealthy
one. And now, you tell me why I am wrong in my view, if you think so?
So why should one join this particular Esoterical School and not another of the
many AAB groups or non-theosophical ones? Why is this one so special?
2.
Duane wrote:
Do you not see the impossible impasse you or others may put this opportunity
into?
M. Sufilight says:
No, I honestly do not.
You can answer the questions. If you do not answer them, we may all wonder why?
I have for very many years not joined a group who was not able to - clearly -
show me its Constitution and Rules! Or the Pledge which need to be taken, if
any! - And I will discourage anyone from joining such a group, calling it self
esoterical and in contact with the the Trans-Himalayan School, when it omits
these things.
And now you aught to tell me whether I am wrong in my views? And if so, why?
The Morya Federation of Esoteric Schools (http://www.moryafederation.net/)
claims the following:
"Sensing the pressing opportunity arising at this critical period in the history
of humanity, a number of experienced students of the Trans-Himalayan Wisdom have
combined forces, creating the Morya Federation to offer sincere and
self-disciplining students of the Ageless Wisdom the opportunity to deepen their
understanding of the Master DKâs voluminous writings and to relate them to the
great works of other theosophically inspired authors such as Helena Blavatsky
(HPB), author of The Secret Doctrine; Helena Roerich, amanuensis for the Agni
Yoga Books inspired by Master Morya, and, other significant authors in the field
of philosophical esotericism."
M. Sufilight says:
Now anyone can claim this. The question is whether ALL these students will come
forward and name themselves and not hide behind the Internet as scared chickens?
I am not prepared to be taught by invisible no-bodies. And I think very few
persons are! - I will have to know who those self-proclaimed students really
are. Why not be honest about it?
It seems that the main person behind it is Michael Robbins and his wife (when we
follow the bottom link to a Facebook website at the website
http://www.moryafederation.net/.)
A QUESTION:
It is a bit new to me, that Michael Robbins claims to be in contact with the
Himalayan Masters. Have any of you heard about this before?
The problem is as I see it the following:
The Morya Federation of Esoteric Schools (http://www.moryafederation.net/)
invites people to become members of its group - without - clearly stating
whether it want money for it, - without - clearly stating whether it is a
genuine Esoteric School - where its leader(s) have a daily continous contact
with a Master. And without clearly stating whether it is a non-political group.
Becuase, - if this group does not forward such claims - it can only be called a
spurious Esoteric School at best. Anyone can claim to be Esoteric, but the
question anyone will have to ask is whether we have a GENUINE School here or
something else. Are you now saying that it is irrelvant to ask such questions?
And are you not in your reply to me at the same time saying: Do not think, just
JOIN US?
Duane wrote:
"You are given an opportunity to grow spiritually and what you do is find all
the
reasons it could not possibly be a legitimate esoteric school. Paradoxically you
will never know will you?"
M. Sufilight says:
Now, according to my book, one cannot as an honest and TRUE initiate advertize
about meditation and service to humanity, especially when they forward the AAB
books as something which should merely be BELIEVED (and not known or properly
examined) to be healthy, while they completely ignore criticism - and almost
automatically gives any critical view about the AAB books the big boot. Is this
not the real truth? And is such a view a healthy one?
Leaders who continously avoid responding to honest and wellmeant criticism are
not trustworthy. There are certain leaders who, will not listen to criticism,
they have a bad blockage when it come to this issue. And I do now what we call
those leaders. We call them: Narrowminded and Blocked leaders.
The difference I have experienced between Blavatsky theossophists and AAB
followers is exactly this lack of self-critical examination about the AAB books
and all other authors among AAB-folllowers - something Blavatsky theosophists
find to be an unhealty attitude on their part.
- - - - - - -
An example is the following from the website:
"Summary of Courses Offered From Year 2 to Year 5
Descriptions of courses to be offered from Year 2 through Year 5 will be shared
in detail with those who fill out an Application. Looking briefly at offerings
beyond the first year, such courses, consistently advancing in depth and
comprehensiveness, includeâ
* two years of Esoteric Psychology
* three years of Esoteric Healing
* three years of White Magic"
......etc. etc. and so on show me, that this School operates through the AAB
books and NOT at all through an equal and open focus on the literature
mentioned: I.e. Blavatsky (HPB), Helena Roerich, and, other significant authors
in the field of philosophical esotericism. Not even Blavatsky's Esoteric Section
operate in such a manner.
So, therefore I will not join this group.
But if they will provide me with their Constitution and Rules - or the Pledge
which might need to be taken I might change my mind and heart.
These are just my views.
Other seekers might join this group and put their head under their arms.
- - -
Wisdom is a scare thing. It is most often not those who have the largest number
of followers who are the most wise ones.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Duane Carpenter
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
Dear Sufilight
You will take the challenge âIFâ your conditions are met. You have already laid
out all the reasons you will not research this group. Perfect way out. They do
not conform to all of your preconceived ideas about what an esoteric school
should be so I cannot join.
Do you not see the impossible impasse you or others may put this opportunity
into?
HPB would be the first to admit advanced esoteric work is not done by simply
studying theories and memorizing facts but by an immersion through meditation
into our higher and more spiritual selves. Morya Federation although based on
the works of AAB and HPB and demanding intellectual clarity is a school of
meditation first and foremost.
You are given an opportunity to grow spiritually and what you do is find all the
reasons it could not possibly be a legitimate esoteric school. Paradoxically you
will never know will you?. It is said in the Pythagorean esoteric school of the
past we would have to remain silent for at least a year or two when we first
entered. Why is that? Perhaps because we might arrive at this school so full of
ourselves and what we know we might be passing judgment, categorizing and
telling everybody how thing should be when we should be humbling ourselves to
learn.
That may be one of the reason few people join esoteric schools because all
potential candidates have all kinds of preconceived ideas about what it is
suppose to be.
If you joined would you not have all of your questions answered??
Best Duane
________________________________
From: M. Sufilight <global-theosophy@UkJEN_8eOXMDo4qo2Bk-Q0PgLczHjOlkKPsp5zaRbFwHVUW1u9HsLEnc6qJb9NjmJA-Hj2DS8VWytw0XSDLUwQzuqg0.yahoo.invalid>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 3:05:22 PM
Subject: Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
Dear Duane, AAB-followers and friends
My views are:
I do hope, that you do not mind me calling you all my friends?
Duane wrote:
"I challenge any readers here to suspend their preconceived ideas or disbelief
and join the Moray Federation of Esoteric Schools for just 6 months or a year
before they start passing out judgments about teachings they either do not
understand or cannot comprehend. This school teahces both AAB and HPB."
M. Sufilight says:
I will take such a challenge at any time, if is possible for me, provided I am
given some answers first to the below questions, and if those answers are proper
and truthful.
If I, who is not a Seeker of beliefs but of Knowledge, should suspend my
(appearntly) by you claimed "preconceived ideas or disbelief" I will first have
to ask you some questions. I ask them with a kind heart, and I do hope that they
are not being misunderstodd by any of the Alice A. Bailey followers.
Here they are...
*** 1 ***
I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
- Why should one join a group, which do not clearly tell me why or whether it
has deviated from the Original Programe of the Theosophical Society as it was
given by H. P. Blavatsky, Morya and KH.?
- Or tell me why why or whether it has deviated from the programe of the
Esoteric Section as it was given by H. P. Blavatsky?
The Original Programe of The theosophical Society - a few excerpts:
"In order to leave no room for equivocation, the members of the T.S. have to be
reminded of the origin of the Society in 1875. Sent to the U.S. of America in
1873 for the purpose of organizing a group of workers on a psychic plane, two
years later the writer received orders from her Master and Teacher to form the
nucleus of a regular Society whose objects were broadly stated as follows:
1. Universal Brotherhood;
2. No distinction to be made by the member between races, creeds, or social
positions, but every member had to be judged and dealt by on his personal
merits;
3. To study the philosophies of the Eastâthose of India chiefly, presenting them
gradually to the public in various works that would interpret exoteric religions
in the light of esoteric teachings;
4. To oppose materialism and theological dogmatism in every possible way, by
demonstrating the existence of occult forces unknown to science, in nature, and
the presence of psychic and spiritual powers in man"......."But if the two
Founders were not told what they had to do, they were distinctly instructed
about what they should never do, what they had to avoid, and what the Society
should never become. Church organizations, Christian and Spiritual sects were
shown as the future contrasts to our Society."
(The Original Programe: BCW, Vol. VII, p. 145-173)
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v7/yxxxx_019.htm
"CONSTITUTION AND RULES OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY
The Theosophist - January 1891"
....
"ARTICLE XIII
Offences
1. Any Fellow who shall in any way attempt to involve the Society In political
disputes shall be immediately expelled.
2. No Fellow, Officer, or Council of the Theosophical Society, or of any Section
or Branch thereof, shall promulgate or maintain any doctrinas being that
advanced, or advocated by the Society. "
http://www.global-theosophy.net/ts_constitution_rules.php
I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
Now you tell me why we should not call all Alice A. Bailey groups and even your
wellmeaning Morya group a Sect - using doctrinas - when they use "Bible-study"
and political entanglements at the United Nations and an Messiah-craze?
Blavatsky was send to USA by Master KH and Morya's own chiefs (and not only by
themselves) to form a group, which among its aims was to be a - contrast - to
the Christian Churches. And not a group promoting "invocative" prayers to make a
very physical external MALE Messiah-craze - excitingly awaited - walk about in
the physical.
Referring to Madame Blavatsky, Master K.H. wrote:
"After nearly a century of fruitless search, our Chiefs had to avail themselves
of the only opportunity to send out a European body upon European soil to serve
as a connecting link between that country and our own."
( The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett, Letter No. 26, Master K.H.'s
Confidential Memo about Old Lady [HPB]. Received Simla, Autumn, 1881. )
*** 2 ***
I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
Why should one join a group, which do not clearly tell me why or whether it has
deviated from the Original Programe of the Esoteric Section as it was given by
H. P. Blavatsky?
H. P. Blavatsky's Esoteric Section has today been turned into a sham by many
Alice A. Bailey groups who claim to follow her footsteps.
Many of them claim to be following these Blavatsky footsteps while they - very
very carefully - avoid forwarding the view that THEY have real contact with a
Master. They demand huges sums of money being spend on membership fee's at their
Esoteric Groups - this DESPITE - that H. P. Blavatsky's Esoteric Section never
required any money being paid to her.
Other groups even claim that THEY have a continous contact with a real Master,
while they also demand huges sums of money being spend on membership fee's at
their Esoteric Groups - this DESPITE - that H. P. Blavatsky's Esoteric Section
never required any money being paid to her.
Why should we join such a openly proclaimed Esoteric Section, who gives
membership to almost anyone?
What kind of esoteric agenda - so-called by itself - is it good for?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
*** 3 ***
I ASK all Alice A. Bailey followers:
Why should we trust a man (the so-called D.K. or else Alice A. Bailey) who take
most of the credit for dictating the Secret Doctrine to H. P. Blavatsky, when we
find many letters opposing this view by Master KH, Master Morya, H. P.
Blavatsky, Constance Watchmeister, HÃbbe Schleiden and perhaps others?
Alice A. Bailey's guide named D.K. forwards his claims several times in the AAB
books. Here are the books and pages where Alice A. Bailey's guide named D.K (or
AAB her self) claims that he was behind the Secret Doctrine:
- Alice A. Bailey - "Initiation - Human and Solar", p. 58
- Alice A. Bailey - "The Rays and Initiations", page 255
- Alice A. Bailey - "The Externalisation of the Hierarchy", page 685
- Alice A. Bailey - "Esoteric Healing", p. 521, 536(?), og 565
And not a single word of credit to Morya and KH about their involvement with the
book!
We can only wonder what agenda motivates such a promotion and why we aught to
take such an author seriously at all?
HPB wrote: "For the true, the genuine âMasters,â whose real names have,
fortunately, never been given out, cannot be created and killed at the beck and
call of the sweet will of any âopportunist,â whether inside or outside of the
T.S." (BCW, Vol. XI, p. 294 - year 1889)
Some words documenting that it was Blavatsky, Morya and KH who was behind the
Secret Doctrine:
A.
The below link and its mahatma letters show me and others that it was not Alice
A. Bailey's guide named D. K. who as claimed wrote large parts of the Secret
Doctrine. It was Master KH and Morya. Blavatsky even write more than one time
about it to Olcott, why should she be lying about this? And why should the
Masters be lying about it? And why should Constance Watchmeister be telling an
untruth about Blavatsky's words about her readings of the Akasha and that her
Master was guiding her?
The Writing of The Secret Doctrine (Remember: read the footnotes as well)
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/invit-sd/invsd-4.htm
B.
Reminiscences of H. P. Blavatsky (Chapter 5)
http://blavatskyarchives.com/wachtmeister/wachtmeisterrem32.htm
C.
"Another witness to such a phenomenon (during H.P.B's stay in WÃrzburg) was Dr
HÃbbe-Schleiden who writes, I saw a good deal of the well-known blue K.H.
handwriting as corrections and annotations on her manuscript as well as in books
that lay occasionally on her desk. And I noticed this principally in the morning
before she had commenced to work. I slept on the couch in her study after she
had withdrawn for the night and the couch stood only a few feet from her desk. I
remember well my astonishment one morning when I got up to find a great many
pages of foolscap covered with that blue pencil handwriting lying on her own
manuscript, at her place on her desk. How these pages got there I do not know,
but I did not see them before I went to sleep, and no person had been bodily in
the room during the night, for I am a light sleeper. [Reminiscences, 112/3]"
(http://www.blavatskytrust.org.uk/html/trilogy_sd.htm)
See also Reminiscences of H. P. Blavatsky (p. 110-113)
A letter received by Wachtmeister from Schleiden
http://blavatskyarchives.com/wachtmeister/wachtmeisterrem110.htm
Or with a bit more info and extra notes by Boris de Zirkoff "The Secret
Doctrine", p. 13-16. (Search it here: http://books.google.com/)
D.
Here we have Blavatsky 's words about D.K.'s lack of grammar:
"Letter LIV
[Sent from Wurzburg. 1885 (?1886)
I have a number of diagrams with reference to the evolution of the septenary
globes and Cosmogony of Esoteric Buddhism, made by Djual Khool and Sarma for me
to explain to you, and Hume during the first year of the Simla teaching; and
several of them I had copied by a Parsee, a good draughtsman of the School of
Arts at Bombay, who could not do them well -- and then, I copied them from D.
Kh.'s with Tibetan signs and names, translating them and doing it the best I
could -- since I did not want to give the originals out to a stranger and you
could not have understood them -- and gave them to Olcott to be copied and one
of them -- the one I sent to Hume I believe -- was copied by Coulomb who is a
very good draughtsman -- too good unfortunately [cf. Letter XLVI, page 304 of
this volume. -- EDS.] I remember how well he copied the few lines in English, a
remark by D. K. on the cosmogony -- in a way that I was astonished: it was a
perfect copy of D. K.'s writing, grammatical mistakes, and all. Neither Olcott,
nor I, nor Damodar, ever made a secret of such copies. . . . [This letter was
unsigned, but it is in H. P. B.'s handwriting. -- EDS.]"
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/damodar/dam6.htm
- - -
Some comments:
I know that my questions in the above might sound harsh. But they are wellmeant.
And I really do care about those, who are Seekers after Truth. That is a most
noble thing. But, I like them to avoid telling me, that I MUST absolutely follow
their Primary "AAB Bible-study" with political entanglements - instead of an
open inquiring into religious-philosophies of all kinds. - And - if they clam to
invite me into what they call an Esoteric Section, they aught to at least pledge
people (and show what that pledge is all about) and show, that they as teachers
know their way around in life - like H. P. Blavatsky did. And openly beforehand
without demanding any fee's what so ever!
Show us this Morya groups Constitution (http://www.moryafederation.net/). If it
is not online its website, we can only ask ourselves why? And if it promotes the
AAB Messiah-craze and political entanglements, we also ask ourselves why,
because this is the same as promoting a dogma and cutting the political flowers
from the surface of the soil instead of tearing them out by the roots. And as a
theosophist I will not agree upon this.
- - -
Blavatsky wrote about why the TS carefully avoided Politics:
"ENQUIRER. Do you take any part in politics?
THEOSOPHIST. As a Society, we carefully avoid them, for the reasons given below.
To seek to achieve political reforms before we have effected a reform in human
nature, is like putting new wine into old bottles. Make men feel and recognise
in their innermost hearts what is their real, true duty to all men, and every
old abuse of power, every iniquitous law in the national policy, based on human,
social or political selfishness, will disappear of itself. Foolish is the
gardener who seeks to weed his flower-bed of poisonous plants by cutting them
off from the surface of the soil, instead of tearing them out by the roots. No
lasting political reform can be ever achieved with the same selfish men at the
head of affairs as of old. " (The Key to Theosophy, p. 231)
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm
And I guess the Master looked at TS Adyar (and its Besant politics) and the AAB
groups (United Nations entanglements) ...and...expressed a friendly sigh....
Any comments?
(No comments is also an answer.)
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Duane Carpenter
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 11:08 PM
Subject: theos-talk A challenge !!!
Hi martin
________________________________
From: Martin <Mvandertak@yZY8Uo9JleZXq4l1c_Qqeb7ToLZ65dlwW1cEjMSrr27iYtsRx2Si9T8WRjv1BsHlkDEsrHHEuD1eTBVKCJs.yahoo.invalid>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 7:33:53 AM
Subject: Re: theos-talk Re: Aurobindo's madman?
Hi Martin
Thank you for sharing your views.
What AAB did by her own admission was to include Esoteric Christianity into
Hindu and Buddhist esoteric traditions. If Theosophy is the esoteric core of ALL
religions why would she not want to include Christianity. Theosophist need to
stop comparing Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeaters superficial analyses of
Christianity and read what AAB has to say. If you are saying here martin that
AAB failed to bring new insights into an old dogmatic Christianity that may not
be correct.
Alice bailey teachings are growing exponentially in leaps and bounds as many of
the earlier contributors to Theosophy are declining. HPB will always be one of
the greatest contributors to esoteric wisdom in my experience but not
necessarily the only one.
We sometimes confuse the heart of Theosophy which is inquiry into the spiritual
with loving or hating the messengers.
This is why Some Theosophists despise AAB because they see her as a threat to
their established dogmas and cherished beliefs. The paradox that no one has yet
explained to me successfully is why do so many AAB students love HPB and study
her alongside AAB. But those who have studied only HPB make premature judgments
and condemnation of AAB without an honest study of her material.?
I challenge any readers here to suspend their preconceived ideas or disbelief
and join the Moray Federation of Esoteric Schools for just 6 months or a year
before they start passing out judgments about teachings they either do not
understand or cannot comprehend. This school teahces both AAB and HPB.
Best Duane
"What is it about Bailey in particular that creates such a paranoid atmosphere
throughout the TS?"
Lol, it is all about tactics...Bailey and those behind her wanted to synthesize
Christianity into Theosophy which is not possible...
At the same time they wanted to bring the Old Wisdom more apprehensible for all
people in which they also failed...
We have now entered a time where all religion will destroy itself from within to
find they were all derived from the One Religion...check my site
http://www.worldoftak.nl/forum/showthread.php?tid=247
...sorry you will need Google to translate some of the text there...
________________________________
From: kpauljohnson <kpauljohnson@ouseN5I5AmZ4HOB5MG2z3pj5koUv1JdhpweS4ZYNknQwbZ6uIlAC_j_6Bx6UeauWqzqAU2wcNWRLYgnxFqA.yahoo.invalid>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, October 9, 2010 1:21:34 PM
Subject: theos-talk Re: Aurobindo's madman?
This was a very contemporary article to have been written a hundred years ago!
As for the "dethroning of popes" that still is the main thing needed IMO. But
now in addition to an authoritarian mindset on behalf of the current leadership,
the popes of 100 years ago are untouchable, beyond criticism, still enthroned
even though long dead.
I would think that Morten and I agree about the relative value of the writings
of Leadbeater and Bailey compared to those of HPB. I'd be equally disinclined
to spend time on either one, but if others in a group wanted to study them would
not object, just skip those classes. But the difference in the TS is that
nothing negative can ever said about the former, nothing positive about the
latter, without making The Powers That Be extremely uncomfortable. What is it
about Bailey in particular that creates such a paranoid atmosphere throughout
the TS?
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Duane Carpenter <monad_monad_monad@...>
wrote:
>
> Great Article Jim
> This extracted section of the article really gave important insights.
>
> Aurobindo: Claims of Theosophy
>
>
> "If Theosophy is to survive, it must first change itself. It must learn that
> mental rectitude to which it is now a stranger and improve its moral basis. It
> must become clear, straightforward, rigidly self-searching, sceptical in the
> nobler sense of the word. It must keep the Mahatmas in the background and put
> God and Truth in the front. Its Popes must dethrone themselves and enthrone the
>
>
>
>
> intellectual conscience of mankind. If they wish to be mystic and secret like
> our Yogins, then they must like our Yogins assert only to the initiate and the
> trained; but if they come out into the world to proclaim their mystic truths
> aloud and seek power, credit and influence on the strength of their assertions,
>
>
>
>
> then they must prove. It need not and ought not to be suddenly or by miracles;
> but there must be a scientific development, we must be able to lay hold on the
> rationale and watch the process of the truths they proclaim."
>
> Circa 1910/12
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: jamesbergh <jamesbergh@...>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 7:12:33 PM
> Subject: theos-talk Aurobindo's madman?
>
> Ã
> I was reading an article by Aurobindo, Claims of Theosophy at:
> www.aurobindo.ru/workings/sa/17/0015_e.htm
>
> He wrote in 1910/12: ...The only member of the Theosophical Society who could
> give me any spiritual help I could not better by my unaided faculties, was one
> excluded from the esoteric section because of his rare and potent experiences
> were unintelligible to Theosophical guides... one who meddled not in
> organizations and election cabals but lived like a madman, unmattavat."
>
> Could have been some other Chuck, but I wonder who this soul may have been.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- References:
- Re: Aurobindo's madman?
- From: "kpauljohnson" <kpauljohnson@lnQpC8zyaKKeBvT_Y_OoMg01gxah8XAm_FCX2TDa0X_GM_Hyrkmek54ndbWuf_jneJpBqeiPjUledJtUHnA.yahoo.invalid>
- Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
- From: "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@ppn-S5OUmgnMl1PdmYzDEeadwSlZ_C_YGArgV7wy9H_nHEWIQ_a1WvA0wO-_l0zAhS1Gb6HDWVdPqXMH25C_82L6aOfeOm8.yahoo.invalid>
- Re: theos-talk A challenge !!!
- From: "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@1os9_Aglvhyx-Ds8jzqTfZiosvUZp2HGtV5xY9VchKt4btE7v9LEnb5WO_1NVpcGuxCUjPvtFudmYgI8auYwFWiRPZE.yahoo.invalid>
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