Theos-Talk Archives (June 2010 Message tt00034)

Dear Joaquim

My views are:

Joaquim asked:
"Now, may I ask: it's not evident the seed of brotherhood present in
"one of the main long term objects" of the United Nations? What
is the need to defend the original ST, just because someone recognizes a
theosophical ideal present in an organisation that brings together
virtually all the nations of the world? Where is the so call
"political involvement"?"


M. Sufilight says:
Let me throw you an answer about what I think and know about it.
In the earliere E-mail I iamed to show you this, and I also quoted Blavatsky saying that law making and courts are not in accordance with the theosophical teachings.
The theosophical teachings promote the Law of Karma (as a hypothesis until verified) and not human Laws signed by fat or rich people, who promote themselves with ideologies which are based on lies and deceit, political spin, and where their ethics vawers and belong to the voters and opinion polls etc. etc. Politicians, which opereate through ideologies not based on the Mening of Life, or theosophy, can never lead people towards a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity. To drag the theosophical teaching of all ages down to such a low level as the United Nations Security Counsil today operates through - with its permanent members etc. - will be rejected on the spot. The same with the International Tribunal for War Crimes and similar man-made superficial "Laws", which seek to bypass the Law of Karma. Only the Law of Karma is able to Judge, whereas ignorant or "betterknowing" humans, laywers with expensive clothes and judges with an image to nourish are certainly NOT!
The Theosophical Society was formed to oppose any kind of materialism and dogmatism. And since the UN Charter fails in this, we can hardly find it to be in accordance with theosophical teachings.

These are views in accordance with the theosophical teachings as they were given in 1875-1891. Later branches and offshoots, and later leaders of the Theosophical Society have deviated from these views. There can be no doubt about this.

The political involvement is promoted by each member state in the United Nations. This fact can hardly be denied.
Well these are my views. Am I really the only one who find these views to be in accordancewith the theosophical teachings as they were given in 1875-1891?


M. Sufilight



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jdmsoares 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 2:13 AM
  Subject: Theos-World Blavatsky, Nazism and Brotherhood


    

  Martha, M. Sufilight, friends

  Thanks.

  I think it's very important to reflect upon the role of original
  Theosophy and its PRACTICAL application in the world.

  And Theos-talk is a place were we can discuss "on topics regarding
  Theosophy (or theosophy) and its realization in the modern world"
  (as we can read in its description note).

  Although not mine, I'm very glad that the article about
  "Theosophy and the Second World War" had made a strong
  impression.

  For me, after reading this article, what was really impressive was the
  misuse of sacred symbols by the Nazis, or the support of the Vatican to
  Fascism, or even the great example of courage given by hundreds of
  theosophist in several European countries, during those dark years.

  Besides this, I also find very inspiring to find the theosophical ideal
  of Universal Brotherhood mirrored in the United Nations. After all,
  that's also PRACTICAL application of the main object of the
  theosophical movement.

  But there are those who don't think so.

  In one of the most important letters received by the Sages of Himalayas
  we can read:

  "Shall we devote our selves to teaching a few Europeans fed on the
  fat of the land, many of them loaded with the gifts of blind fortune,
  the rationale of bell ringing, cup growing, of the spiritual telephone
  and astral body formation, and leave the teeming millions of the
  ignorant, of the poor and despised, the lowly and the oppressed, to take
  care of themselves and of their hereafter the best they know how. Never.
  Rather perish the Theosophical Society with both its hapless founders
  than that we should permit it to become no better than an academy of
  magic and a hall of occultism. That we, the devoted followers of that
  spirit incarnate of absolute self sacrifice, of philanthropy, divine
  kindness, as of all the highest virtues attainable on this earth of
  sorrow, the man of men, Gautama Buddha, should ever allow the
  Theosophical Society to represent the embodiment of selfishness, the
  refuge of the few with no thought in them for the many, is a strange
  idea, my brothers."

  (View of the Chohan on the T. S., link:
  http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-choh.htm
  <http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-choh.htm> )

  Now, may I ask: it's not evident the seed of brotherhood present in
  "one of the main long term objects" of the United Nations? What
  is the need to defend the original ST, just because someone recognizes a
  theosophical ideal present in an organisation that brings together
  virtually all the nations of the world? Where is the so call
  "political involvement"?

  Let's not chase windmills. Nobody is talking about parties or
  politics. We are talking about Ethics! What we are talking here it's
  about one of the many ways that the ideals of Theosophy can be
  "planted" in the world.

  After years of atrocity and oppression perpetrated by the Nazi and
  Fascists regimes, the democratic countries of the world made a
  compromise not to forget such painful experience that was the World War.
  On December 10th of 1948, the United Nations General Assembly adopted
  the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

  In that declaration we can find the ethical principles for the new
  millennium, the same ethic present in the core of all religions and
  philosophical traditions of the world - the Ethics of Perennial
  Wisdom, or Theosophy.

  The first and main object of the theosophical movement, founded in 1875
  in New York City, is:

  "To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity,
  without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or color"

  The United Nations Charter commits all member states to promote:

  "[U]niversal repect for, and observance of, human rights and
  fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex,
  language or religion".

  (http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml
  <http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml> )

  The article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says:

  "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
  They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one
  another in a spirit of brotherhood."

  I just wonder: how it would be this world if we do not have already the
  theosophical ideal of brotherhood present, even if imperfect, in such a
  practical way? How more suffering for millions of people, beyond that
  they already live, if not for the established surveillance of those who
  have the Human Rights Declaration of UN as an aim for all?

  As for we, theosophical students, the words of the Master remain always
  present:

  "That we (.) should ever allow the Theosophical Society [or
  Theosophical movement] to represent the embodiment of selfishness, the
  refuge of the few with no thought in them for the many, is a strange
  idea, my brothers."

  Fraternal greetings,

  Joaquim

  --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Martha Vieira <marthavi@...> wrote:
  >
  > Joaquim,
  >
  > Thank you.
  >
  > Commentaries linking Theosophy and Nazism are misconceptions that
  ought to
  > be elucidated, always. The articles you mentioned do it successfuly.
  > Theosophy do not mix with politics, but the situation in WWII was one
  of
  > crime against mankind, not actually politics. H.P.B. 's work stands
  against
  > opression, falsehood and violence, whatever form it assumes. It stands
  for
  > brotherhood, peace and freedom, no matter where or when these
  initiatives
  > appear.
  >
  >
  > Fraternal greetings
  >
  > Martha
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 1:17 PM, M. Sufilight
  > global-theosophy@...wrote:
  >
  > >
  > >
  > > Thanks Joaquim
  > >
  > > My views are:
  > >
  > > Your e-mail make me respond again in defence of the original
  Theosophical
  > > Society (1875-1891) before HPB died.
  > > At least the below is my view on it. others might think that it is
  wrong,
  > > and that we all should be entangled with politics instead of wisdom.
  > >
  > > Carlos wrote the following in his article:
  > > "* The first and main object of the theosophical movement, which
  refers to
  > > the ideal of Universal Brotherhood, was clearly adopted by the
  United
  > > Nations. The first Article of the U.N. Charter, which states the
  four
  > > Purposes and Principles of the U.N., is profoundly theosophical. The
  United
  > > Nations goals are:
  > >
  > > "1) To maintain peace and security (...); 2) To develop friendly
  relations
  > > among nations (...); 3) To achieve international cooperation in
  solving
  > > international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or
  humanitarian
  > > character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights
  and for
  > > fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex,
  language,
  > > or religion; and 4) To be a center for harmonizing the actions of
  nations in
  > > the attainment of these common ends." [19]"
  > >
  > > M. Sufilight says:
  > > Well...when I read this, I did not at first believe my eyes, and
  then I
  > > remembered that something was quite wrong...
  > >
  > > The United Nations Charter in fact states something quite different,
  if the
  > > words are read in their entirety...
  > >
  > > The Purposes of the United Nations are:
  > > 1.. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end:
  to take
  > > effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of
  threats to
  > > the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other
  breaches
  > > of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in
  conformity with
  > > the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or
  settlement of
  > > international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of
  the
  > > peace;
  > > 2.. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for
  the
  > > principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to
  take
  > > other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
  > > 3.. To achieve international co-operation in solving international
  problems
  > > of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in
  > > promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for
  fundamental
  > > freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or
  religion;
  > > and
  > > 4.. To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the
  attainment
  > > of these common ends.
  > > http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml
  > >
  > > - - -
  > >
  > > M. Sufilight says:
  > > Now I do not mind, that people only like to read the good they see.
  Yet H.
  > > P. Blavatsky and other theosophists never hesitated calling politics
  for
  > > Low-Ethics in 1875-1891..
  > > And the Constitution of the Theosophical Society was against
  political
  > > involvement as late as Januar 1891, before Annie Besant and others
  changed
  > > it. Saying that the United Nations is the same as theosophy or to
  insinuate
  > > such a thing is, aught to be shown in its true and honest light - as
  a false
  > > and deceiving activity, and aught to be rejected on the spot.
  > >
  > > I will dearly say, that Followers of The Theosophical Society in its
  > > original spirit (1875-1891) should always be on guard - and - seek
  to reject
  > > any kind of politicizing or Christianizing of its Main Aims. The
  creation of
  > > a Nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of humanity can never ever be
  > > achieved by writing man-made laws on a piece of paper, by the use of
  human
  > > Courts (swaering by the Bible or the Quran) and Judge, and more or
  less
  > > sickening prisons. Such a construction will never end the strifes
  between
  > > the worlds religions and never make politicians change and begin to
  deal -
  > > honestly - with the Meaning of Life, instead of continously get
  entangled in
  > > Spin, Party politics based on no-solid rock, and in compromizing
  with
  > > ethics.
  > >
  > > An example:
  > > And should we state that Friendly relations and equal rights among
  Afghan
  > > people (in accordance with the UN Charter) without question has been
  > > promoted by the United Nations since the western forces invaded that
  > > country?
  > > But why deceive people into thinking that the United Nations has the
  first
  > > object of the original Theosophical Society (1875-1891) as their aim
  as
  > > well, when it all in all is not the truth? This baffles me.
  > > I wonder, what agenda there could be behind such a promotion.
  > >
  > > H. P. Blavatsky in fact also wrote in The Key to Theosophy:
  > > "Abolish the oath in Courts, Parliament, Army and everywhere, and do
  as the
  > > Quakers do, if you will call yourselves Christians. Abolish the
  Courts
  > > themselves, for if you would follow the Commandments of Christ, you
  have to
  > > give away your coat to him who deprives you of your cloak, and turn
  your
  > > left cheek to the bully who smites you on the right. "Resist not
  evil, love
  > > your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate
  you," for
  > > "whosoever shall break one of the least of these Commandments and
  shall
  > > teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of
  Heaven," and
  > > "whosoever shall say 'Thou fool' shall be in danger of hell fire."
  And why
  > > should you judge, if you would not be judged in your turn? Insist
  that
  > > between Theosophy and the Theosophical Society there is no
  difference, and
  > > forthwith you lay the system of Christianity and its very essence
  open to
  > > the same charges, only in a more serious form. "
  > > http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm
  > >
  > > And interestingly is it that the United Nations Headquarters in New
  York
  > > was build in accordance with what we know as Modernism.
  > >
  > > H. P. Blavatsky wrote on politics:
  > >
  > > "Unconcerned about politics; hostile to the insane dreams of
  Socialism and
  > > of Communism, which it abhors-as both are but disguised conspiracies
  of
  > > brutal force and sluggishness against honest labour; the Society
  cares but
  > > little about the outward human management of the material world. The
  whole
  > > of its aspirations are directed towards the occult truths of the
  visible and
  > > invisible worlds. Whether the physical man be under the rule of an
  empire or
  > > a republic, concerns only the man of matter. His body may be
  enslaved; as to
  > > his Soul, he has the right to give to his rulers the proud answer of
  > > Socrates to his Judges. They have no sway ove the inner man. "
  > > ( In the very first number of the first volume of the magazine, The
  > > Theosophist, that for October 1879, in the article "What Are the
  > > Theosophists?" (reprinted in U.L.T. Pamphlet No. 22) we find the
  above from
  > > H. P. blavatsky)
  > > http://www.teosofia.com/Mumbai/7112politics.html
  > >
  > > - - -
  > >
  > > *** Let us not forget the next main articles of the United Nations
  Charter
  > > ***
  > >
  > > "Article 2
  > > The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated
  in
  > > Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.
  > >
  > > 1.. The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign
  equality of
  > > all its Members.
  > > 2.. All Members, in order to ensure to all of them the rights and
  benefits
  > > resulting from membership, shall fulfill in good faith the
  obligations
  > > assumed by them in accordance with the present Charter.
  > > 3.. All Members shall settle their international disputes by
  peaceful means
  > > in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice,
  are not
  > > endangered.
  > > 4.. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from
  the
  > > threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
  political
  > > independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with
  the
  > > Purposes of the United Nations.
  > > 5.. All Members shall give the United Nations every assistance in
  any
  > > action it takes in accordance with the present Charter, and shall
  refrain
  > > from giving assistance to any state against which the United Nations
  is
  > > taking preventive or enforcement action.
  > > 6.. The Organization shall ensure that states which are not Members
  of the
  > > United Nations act in accordance with these Principles so far as may
  be
  > > necessary for the maintenance of international peace and security.
  > > 7.. Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the
  United
  > > Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the
  domestic
  > > jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit
  such
  > > matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle
  shall
  > > not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter
  Vll.
  > > Article 3
  > > The original Members of the United Nations shall be the states
  which,
  > > having participated in the United Nations Conference on
  International
  > > Organization at San Francisco, or having previously signed the
  Declaration
  > > by United Nations of 1 January 1942, sign the present Charter and
  ratify it
  > > in accordance with Article 110.
  > >
  > > Article 4
  > > 1.. Membership in the United Nations is open to all other
  peace-loving
  > > states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter
  and, in
  > > the judgment of the Organization, are able and willing to carry out
  these
  > > obligations.
  > > 2.. The admission of any such state to membership in the United
  Nations
  > > will be effected by a decision of the General Assembly upon the
  > > recommendation of the Security Council.
  > > Article 5
  > > A Member of the United Nations against which preventive or
  enforcement
  > > action has been taken by the Security Council may be suspended from
  the
  > > exercise of the rights and privileges of membership by the General
  Assembly
  > > upon the recommendation of the Security Council. The exercise of
  these
  > > rights and privileges may be restored by the Security Council.
  > >
  > > Article 6
  > > A Member of the United Nations which has persistently violated the
  > > Principles contained in the present Charter may be expelled from the
  > > Organization by the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the
  Security
  > > Council. "
  > > http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml
  > >
  > > M. Sufilight
  > >
  > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > From: jdmsoares
  > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
  > > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 8:24 PM
  > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky and Nazism
  > >
  > > Dear Friends,
  > > Thanks MKR to bring again to this group this topic about the
  > > misconceptions aroud Theosophy and it supposed influence on Nazism.
  > > There are still circulating on the web and in some books a lot of
  false
  > > ideais about HPB and Theosophy.
  > > That article of Carlos is really opportune.
  > > In this context, there is another article that i would like to draw
  your
  > > attention:
  > > "THEOSOPHY AND THE SECOND WORLD WAR - Nazism, Fascism, and the
  > > Theosophical Movement During The Twentieth Century
  > >
  <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w\
  \
  > > 
  <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w\
  >ar.html> "
  > >
  > > Direct link:
  > >
  http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-wa\
  \
  > > 
  <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w\
  a>r.html
  > >
  <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w\
  \
  > > 
  <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w\
  >ar.html>
  > >
  > > Joaquim
  > >
  > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>,
  "M.
  > > Sufilight" global-theosophy@
  > > wrote:
  > > >
  > > > Thanks MKR
  > > >
  > > > My views are:
  > > >
  > > > This made me react and try to just one more time get an response
  from
  > > the honourable leaders of the TS about the follownig views...
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Carlos wrote:
  > > > "7) You fail to see that Helena Blavatsky did not engage in any
  > > anti-British Movement or pro-Indian Independence Movement, and that
  > > even the Theosophical Society (Adyar) was pro-British during the
  Second
  > > World War, not to mention all the other branches of the Movement; "
  > > >
  > > > M. Sufilight says:
  > > > This I write the following...
  > > > What Carlos seem to fail seeing is, that Blavatsky and the
  > > Theosophical Society was against any kind of political involvement.
  > > > Try The theosophical Constitution and Statutes given in The
  > > Theosophist - January 1891. And also the ORIGINAL PROGRAM
  MANUSCRIPT,
  > > written 1886 in BCW, Vol. VII, p. 145. Both of them are clearly
  against
  > > political involvement. H. S. Olcott wrote against political
  involvement
  > > of the T.S. members in 1882.
  > > >
  > > > . In the very first number of the first volume of the magazine,
  The
  > > Theosophist, that for October 1879, in the article "What Are the
  > > Theosophists?" (reprinted in U.L.T. Pamphlet No. 22) we find the
  > > following from H. P. blavatsky:
  > > >
  > > > "Unconcerned about politics; hostile to the insane dreams of
  > > Socialism and of Communism, which it abhors-as both are but
  disguised
  > > conspiracies of brutal force and sluggishness against honest labour;
  the
  > > Society cares but little about the outward human management of the
  > > material world. The whole of its aspirations are directed towards
  the
  > > occult truths of the visible and invisible worlds. Whether the
  physical
  > > man be under the rule of an empire or a republic, concerns only the
  man
  > > of matter. His body may be enslaved; as to his Soul, he has the
  right to
  > > give to his rulers the proud answer of Socrates to his Judges. They
  have
  > > no sway ove the inner man. "
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > In the Supplement to The Theosophist for July 1883 can be found a
  very
  > > important pronouncement by Col. H. S. Olcott, the co-founder and
  > > President of the Theosophical Society, against mixing Theosophy and
  > > politics. This statement, which H.P.B. endorsed, reads:
  > > > "That our members, and others whom it interests, may make no
  mistake
  > > as to the Society's attitude as regards Politics, I take this
  occasion
  > > to say that our Rules, and traditional policy alike, prohibit every
  > > officer and fellow of the Society, AS SUCH, to meddle with political
  > > questions in the slightest degree, and to compromise the Society by
  > > saying that it has, AS SUCH, any opinion upon those or any other
  > > questions. The Presidents of Branches, in all countries, will be
  good
  > > enough to read this protest to their members, and in every instance
  when
  > > initiating a candidate to give him to understand-as I invariably
  do-the
  > > fact of our corporate neutrality. So convinced am I that the
  perpetuity
  > > of our Society depends upon our keeping closely to our legitimate
  > > province, and leaving Politics "severely alone," I shall use the
  full
  > > power permitted to me as President-Founder to suspend or expel every
  > > member, or even discipline or discharter any Branch which shall, by
  > > offending in this respect, imperil the work now so prosperously
  going on
  > > in various parts of the world."
  > > > http://www.teosofia.com/Mumbai/7112politics.html
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > This alone leads me to consider whether Olcot and Blavatsky would
  not
  > > have expelled Annie Besant and perhaps even the present day
  Theosophical
  > > Society's leaders, because the do not in any clear manner reject
  > > political involvement - and the present day Constitution and
  Statutes
  > > have deleted the paragraph saying:
  > > > "ARTICLE XIII
  > > > Offences
  > > > 1. Any Fellow who shall in any way attempt to involve the Society
  In
  > > political disputes shall be immediately expelled."
  > > > (The Constitution and Statutes, written in The Theosophist, Januar
  > > 1891)
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > As long as no member in TS Adyar will go forward and clearly
  exlpain
  > > why it has been necessary to deviate from the original programe with
  > > regard to politics during Annie Besants leadership, and during the
  > > present day leadership, I se no reason to join the TS, because then
  it
  > > must really be a carcass reasting on no solid grounds.
  > > >
  > > > Silence is of course also an answer.
  > > > And we ask in the name of compassion: Is this how you promulagte
  > > theosophy? When will you teach theosophy proper?
  > > >
  > > > ----
  > > > (B)
  > > >
  > > > Carlos wrote:
  > > > "9) You fail to see that H.P.B.'s Theosophy is completely against
  any
  > > conception of a "unfailing leader", a concept which belongs to the
  > > Vatican, to Nazis, and to Fascists."
  > > >
  > > > M. Sufilight says:
  > > > This I write the following...
  > > > I wonder if Carlos fails to see, that the present day TS does not
  > > clearly and visibly seem offer such a view to outsiders and
  potential
  > > members about J. Krishnamurti's role in the TS of the past and the
  > > present?
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > Well I found these question important to ask.
  > > > And one can only wonder whether the TS only promotes theosophy
  towards
  > > the Jews, and leave all honest Blavatskyan Theosophists in the cold.
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > M. Sufilight
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > > From: MKR
  > > > To: theos-talk
  > > > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 4:01 AM
  > > > Subject: Theos-World Blavatsky and Nazism
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > The subject of the influence of HPB's writing on Nazism has been
  > > discussed
  > > > in the past in various forums.
  > > >
  > > > There is a very interesting discussion in a recent article at <
  > > > http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/> titled:
  > > >
  > > > 'Message to an Author Who Did not Study Theosophy'. It is very
  well
  > > written
  > > > and theosophists would find it interesting.
  > > >
  > > > MKR
  > > >
  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > >
  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > > >
  > >
  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > >
  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > >
  > >
  > >
  >
  >
  >
  > --
  > Visite: www.filosofiaesoterica.com
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >

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