Theos-Talk Archives (June 2010 Message tt00031)

In spite of the very clear statement about the real objectives behind the
launching of the TS, more often the educated theosophists gets bogged down
on the nitty gritty details of the unseen world and forces operating in the
unseen world. Also most of what is written and spoken by scholars and
leaders is not their first hand experience.

Implementing the theosophical doctrines in life on earth seems to have been
delegated as secondary and that is why I think theosophical organizations in
the West fail to attract young and old alike.

It would be a very good exercise to meditate on the quote from Maha Chohanâs
views in the hope each of us can find practical application of the
theosophical doctrines.

When we read about news such as the TOS in Paris being thrown out of the TS
premises on some lame excuse, one wonders if the views of Maha Chohan has
been forgotten and other personal preferences and opinions overshadowing the
judgement which end up decisions such as the above.

MKR


On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:13 PM, jdmsoares <jdmsoares@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> Martha, M. Sufilight, friends
>
> Thanks.
>
> I think it's very important to reflect upon the role of original
> Theosophy and its PRACTICAL application in the world.
>
> And Theos-talk is a place were we can discuss "on topics regarding
> Theosophy (or theosophy) and its realization in the modern world"
> (as we can read in its description note).
>
> Although not mine, I'm very glad that the article about
> "Theosophy and the Second World War" had made a strong
> impression.
>
> For me, after reading this article, what was really impressive was the
> misuse of sacred symbols by the Nazis, or the support of the Vatican to
> Fascism, or even the great example of courage given by hundreds of
> theosophist in several European countries, during those dark years.
>
> Besides this, I also find very inspiring to find the theosophical ideal
> of Universal Brotherhood mirrored in the United Nations. After all,
> that's also PRACTICAL application of the main object of the
> theosophical movement.
>
> But there are those who don't think so.
>
> In one of the most important letters received by the Sages of Himalayas
> we can read:
>
> "Shall we devote our selves to teaching a few Europeans fed on the
> fat of the land, many of them loaded with the gifts of blind fortune,
> the rationale of bell ringing, cup growing, of the spiritual telephone
> and astral body formation, and leave the teeming millions of the
> ignorant, of the poor and despised, the lowly and the oppressed, to take
> care of themselves and of their hereafter the best they know how. Never.
> Rather perish the Theosophical Society with both its hapless founders
> than that we should permit it to become no better than an academy of
> magic and a hall of occultism. That we, the devoted followers of that
> spirit incarnate of absolute self sacrifice, of philanthropy, divine
> kindness, as of all the highest virtues attainable on this earth of
> sorrow, the man of men, Gautama Buddha, should ever allow the
> Theosophical Society to represent the embodiment of selfishness, the
> refuge of the few with no thought in them for the many, is a strange
> idea, my brothers."
>
> (View of the Chohan on the T. S., link:
> http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-choh.htm
> <http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-choh.htm> )
>
> Now, may I ask: it's not evident the seed of brotherhood present in
> "one of the main long term objects" of the United Nations? What
> is the need to defend the original ST, just because someone recognizes a
> theosophical ideal present in an organisation that brings together
> virtually all the nations of the world? Where is the so call
> "political involvement"?
>
> Let's not chase windmills. Nobody is talking about parties or
> politics. We are talking about Ethics! What we are talking here it's
> about one of the many ways that the ideals of Theosophy can be
> "planted" in the world.
>
> After years of atrocity and oppression perpetrated by the Nazi and
> Fascists regimes, the democratic countries of the world made a
> compromise not to forget such painful experience that was the World War.
> On December 10th of 1948, the United Nations General Assembly adopted
> the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
>
> In that declaration we can find the ethical principles for the new
> millennium, the same ethic present in the core of all religions and
> philosophical traditions of the world â the Ethics of Perennial
> Wisdom, or Theosophy.
>
> The first and main object of the theosophical movement, founded in 1875
> in New York City, is:
>
> "To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity,
> without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or color"
>
> The United Nations Charter commits all member states to promote:
>
> "[U]niversal repect for, and observance of, human rights and
> fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex,
> language or religion".
>
> (http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml
> <http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml> )
>
> The article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says:
>
> "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
> They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one
> another in a spirit of brotherhood."
>
> I just wonder: how it would be this world if we do not have already the
> theosophical ideal of brotherhood present, even if imperfect, in such a
> practical way? How more suffering for millions of people, beyond that
> they already live, if not for the established surveillance of those who
> have the Human Rights Declaration of UN as an aim for all?
>
> As for we, theosophical students, the words of the Master remain always
> present:
>
> "That we (â) should ever allow the Theosophical Society [or
> Theosophical movement] to represent the embodiment of selfishness, the
> refuge of the few with no thought in them for the many, is a strange
> idea, my brothers."
>
> Fraternal greetings,
>
> Joaquim
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, Martha
> Vieira <marthavi@...> wrote:
> >
> > Joaquim,
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Commentaries linking Theosophy and Nazism are misconceptions that
> ought to
> > be elucidated, always. The articles you mentioned do it successfuly.
> > Theosophy do not mix with politics, but the situation in WWII was one
> of
> > crime against mankind, not actually politics. H.P.B. 's work stands
> against
> > opression, falsehood and violence, whatever form it assumes. It stands
> for
> > brotherhood, peace and freedom, no matter where or when these
> initiatives
> > appear.
> >
> >
> > Fraternal greetings
> >
> > Martha
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 1:17 PM, M. Sufilight
> > global-theosophy@...wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks Joaquim
> > >
> > > My views are:
> > >
> > > Your e-mail make me respond again in defence of the original
> Theosophical
> > > Society (1875-1891) before HPB died.
> > > At least the below is my view on it. others might think that it is
> wrong,
> > > and that we all should be entangled with politics instead of wisdom.
> > >
> > > Carlos wrote the following in his article:
> > > "* The first and main object of the theosophical movement, which
> refers to
> > > the ideal of Universal Brotherhood, was clearly adopted by the
> United
> > > Nations. The first Article of the U.N. Charter, which states the
> four
> > > Purposes and Principles of the U.N., is profoundly theosophical. The
> United
> > > Nations goals are:
> > >
> > > "1) To maintain peace and security (...); 2) To develop friendly
> relations
> > > among nations (...); 3) To achieve international cooperation in
> solving
> > > international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or
> humanitarian
> > > character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights
> and for
> > > fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex,
> language,
> > > or religion; and 4) To be a center for harmonizing the actions of
> nations in
> > > the attainment of these common ends." [19]"
> > >
> > > M. Sufilight says:
> > > Well...when I read this, I did not at first believe my eyes, and
> then I
> > > remembered that something was quite wrong...
> > >
> > > The United Nations Charter in fact states something quite different,
> if the
> > > words are read in their entirety...
> > >
> > > The Purposes of the United Nations are:
> > > 1.. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end:
> to take
> > > effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of
> threats to
> > > the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other
> breaches
> > > of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in
> conformity with
> > > the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or
> settlement of
> > > international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of
> the
> > > peace;
> > > 2.. To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for
> the
> > > principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to
> take
> > > other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;
> > > 3.. To achieve international co-operation in solving international
> problems
> > > of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in
> > > promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for
> fundamental
> > > freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or
> religion;
> > > and
> > > 4.. To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the
> attainment
> > > of these common ends.
> > > http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml
> > >
> > > - - -
> > >
> > > M. Sufilight says:
> > > Now I do not mind, that people only like to read the good they see.
> Yet H.
> > > P. Blavatsky and other theosophists never hesitated calling politics
> for
> > > Low-Ethics in 1875-1891..
> > > And the Constitution of the Theosophical Society was against
> political
> > > involvement as late as Januar 1891, before Annie Besant and others
> changed
> > > it. Saying that the United Nations is the same as theosophy or to
> insinuate
> > > such a thing is, aught to be shown in its true and honest light - as
> a false
> > > and deceiving activity, and aught to be rejected on the spot.
> > >
> > > I will dearly say, that Followers of The Theosophical Society in its
> > > original spirit (1875-1891) should always be on guard - and - seek
> to reject
> > > any kind of politicizing or Christianizing of its Main Aims. The
> creation of
> > > a Nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of humanity can never ever be
> > > achieved by writing man-made laws on a piece of paper, by the use of
> human
> > > Courts (swaering by the Bible or the Quran) and Judge, and more or
> less
> > > sickening prisons. Such a construction will never end the strifes
> between
> > > the worlds religions and never make politicians change and begin to
> deal -
> > > honestly - with the Meaning of Life, instead of continously get
> entangled in
> > > Spin, Party politics based on no-solid rock, and in compromizing
> with
> > > ethics.
> > >
> > > An example:
> > > And should we state that Friendly relations and equal rights among
> Afghan
> > > people (in accordance with the UN Charter) without question has been
> > > promoted by the United Nations since the western forces invaded that
> > > country?
> > > But why deceive people into thinking that the United Nations has the
> first
> > > object of the original Theosophical Society (1875-1891) as their aim
> as
> > > well, when it all in all is not the truth? This baffles me.
> > > I wonder, what agenda there could be behind such a promotion.
> > >
> > > H. P. Blavatsky in fact also wrote in The Key to Theosophy:
> > > "Abolish the oath in Courts, Parliament, Army and everywhere, and do
> as the
> > > Quakers do, if you will call yourselves Christians. Abolish the
> Courts
> > > themselves, for if you would follow the Commandments of Christ, you
> have to
> > > give away your coat to him who deprives you of your cloak, and turn
> your
> > > left cheek to the bully who smites you on the right. "Resist not
> evil, love
> > > your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate
> you," for
> > > "whosoever shall break one of the least of these Commandments and
> shall
> > > teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of
> Heaven," and
> > > "whosoever shall say 'Thou fool' shall be in danger of hell fire."
> And why
> > > should you judge, if you would not be judged in your turn? Insist
> that
> > > between Theosophy and the Theosophical Society there is no
> difference, and
> > > forthwith you lay the system of Christianity and its very essence
> open to
> > > the same charges, only in a more serious form. "
> > > http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm
> > >
> > > And interestingly is it that the United Nations Headquarters in New
> York
> > > was build in accordance with what we know as Modernism.
> > >
> > > H. P. Blavatsky wrote on politics:
> > >
> > > "Unconcerned about politics; hostile to the insane dreams of
> Socialism and
> > > of Communism, which it abhors-as both are but disguised conspiracies
> of
> > > brutal force and sluggishness against honest labour; the Society
> cares but
> > > little about the outward human management of the material world. The
> whole
> > > of its aspirations are directed towards the occult truths of the
> visible and
> > > invisible worlds. Whether the physical man be under the rule of an
> empire or
> > > a republic, concerns only the man of matter. His body may be
> enslaved; as to
> > > his Soul, he has the right to give to his rulers the proud answer of
> > > Socrates to his Judges. They have no sway ove the inner man. "
> > > ( In the very first number of the first volume of the magazine, The
> > > Theosophist, that for October 1879, in the article "What Are the
> > > Theosophists?" (reprinted in U.L.T. Pamphlet No. 22) we find the
> above from
> > > H. P. blavatsky)
> > > http://www.teosofia.com/Mumbai/7112politics.html
> > >
> > > - - -
> > >
> > > *** Let us not forget the next main articles of the United Nations
> Charter
> > > ***
> > >
> > > "Article 2
> > > The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated
> in
> > > Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.
> > >
> > > 1.. The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign
> equality of
> > > all its Members.
> > > 2.. All Members, in order to ensure to all of them the rights and
> benefits
> > > resulting from membership, shall fulfill in good faith the
> obligations
> > > assumed by them in accordance with the present Charter.
> > > 3.. All Members shall settle their international disputes by
> peaceful means
> > > in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice,
> are not
> > > endangered.
> > > 4.. All Members shall refrain in their international relations from
> the
> > > threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
> political
> > > independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with
> the
> > > Purposes of the United Nations.
> > > 5.. All Members shall give the United Nations every assistance in
> any
> > > action it takes in accordance with the present Charter, and shall
> refrain
> > > from giving assistance to any state against which the United Nations
> is
> > > taking preventive or enforcement action.
> > > 6.. The Organization shall ensure that states which are not Members
> of the
> > > United Nations act in accordance with these Principles so far as may
> be
> > > necessary for the maintenance of international peace and security.
> > > 7.. Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the
> United
> > > Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the
> domestic
> > > jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit
> such
> > > matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle
> shall
> > > not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter
> Vll.
> > > Article 3
> > > The original Members of the United Nations shall be the states
> which,
> > > having participated in the United Nations Conference on
> International
> > > Organization at San Francisco, or having previously signed the
> Declaration
> > > by United Nations of 1 January 1942, sign the present Charter and
> ratify it
> > > in accordance with Article 110.
> > >
> > > Article 4
> > > 1.. Membership in the United Nations is open to all other
> peace-loving
> > > states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter
> and, in
> > > the judgment of the Organization, are able and willing to carry out
> these
> > > obligations.
> > > 2.. The admission of any such state to membership in the United
> Nations
> > > will be effected by a decision of the General Assembly upon the
> > > recommendation of the Security Council.
> > > Article 5
> > > A Member of the United Nations against which preventive or
> enforcement
> > > action has been taken by the Security Council may be suspended from
> the
> > > exercise of the rights and privileges of membership by the General
> Assembly
> > > upon the recommendation of the Security Council. The exercise of
> these
> > > rights and privileges may be restored by the Security Council.
> > >
> > > Article 6
> > > A Member of the United Nations which has persistently violated the
> > > Principles contained in the present Charter may be expelled from the
> > > Organization by the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the
> Security
> > > Council. "
> > > http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml
> > >
> > > M. Sufilight
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: jdmsoares
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 8:24 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Blavatsky and Nazism
> > >
> > > Dear Friends,
> > > Thanks MKR to bring again to this group this topic about the
> > > misconceptions aroud Theosophy and it supposed influence on Nazism.
> > > There are still circulating on the web and in some books a lot of
> false
> > > ideais about HPB and Theosophy.
> > > That article of Carlos is really opportune.
> > > In this context, there is another article that i would like to draw
> your
> > > attention:
> > > "THEOSOPHY AND THE SECOND WORLD WAR - Nazism, Fascism, and the
> > > Theosophical Movement During The Twentieth Century
> > >
> <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w\
> \
>  <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w>>
> >
> <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w\
>  <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w>>ar.html>
> "
> > >
> > > Direct link:
> > >
> http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-wa\
> \
>  <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-wa>>
> >
> <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w\
> a<http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-wa>
> >r.html
> > >
> <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w\
> \
>  <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w>>
> >
> <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w\
>  <http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/2010/05/theosophy-and-second-world-w>
> >ar.html>
> > >
> > > Joaquim
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com><theos-talk%
> 40yahoogroups.com>,
> "M.
> > > Sufilight" global-theosophy@
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks MKR
> > > >
> > > > My views are:
> > > >
> > > > This made me react and try to just one more time get an response
> from
> > > the honourable leaders of the TS about the follownig views...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Carlos wrote:
> > > > "7) You fail to see that Helena Blavatsky did not engage in any
> > > anti-British Movement or pro-Indian Independence Movement, and that
> > > even the Theosophical Society (Adyar) was pro-British during the
> Second
> > > World War, not to mention all the other branches of the Movement; "
> > > >
> > > > M. Sufilight says:
> > > > This I write the following...
> > > > What Carlos seem to fail seeing is, that Blavatsky and the
> > > Theosophical Society was against any kind of political involvement.
> > > > Try The theosophical Constitution and Statutes given in The
> > > Theosophist - January 1891. And also the ORIGINAL PROGRAM
> MANUSCRIPT,
> > > written 1886 in BCW, Vol. VII, p. 145. Both of them are clearly
> against
> > > political involvement. H. S. Olcott wrote against political
> involvement
> > > of the T.S. members in 1882.
> > > >
> > > > . In the very first number of the first volume of the magazine,
> The
> > > Theosophist, that for October 1879, in the article "What Are the
> > > Theosophists?" (reprinted in U.L.T. Pamphlet No. 22) we find the
> > > following from H. P. blavatsky:
> > > >
> > > > "Unconcerned about politics; hostile to the insane dreams of
> > > Socialism and of Communism, which it abhors-as both are but
> disguised
> > > conspiracies of brutal force and sluggishness against honest labour;
> the
> > > Society cares but little about the outward human management of the
> > > material world. The whole of its aspirations are directed towards
> the
> > > occult truths of the visible and invisible worlds. Whether the
> physical
> > > man be under the rule of an empire or a republic, concerns only the
> man
> > > of matter. His body may be enslaved; as to his Soul, he has the
> right to
> > > give to his rulers the proud answer of Socrates to his Judges. They
> have
> > > no sway ove the inner man. "
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In the Supplement to The Theosophist for July 1883 can be found a
> very
> > > important pronouncement by Col. H. S. Olcott, the co-founder and
> > > President of the Theosophical Society, against mixing Theosophy and
> > > politics. This statement, which H.P.B. endorsed, reads:
> > > > "That our members, and others whom it interests, may make no
> mistake
> > > as to the Society's attitude as regards Politics, I take this
> occasion
> > > to say that our Rules, and traditional policy alike, prohibit every
> > > officer and fellow of the Society, AS SUCH, to meddle with political
> > > questions in the slightest degree, and to compromise the Society by
> > > saying that it has, AS SUCH, any opinion upon those or any other
> > > questions. The Presidents of Branches, in all countries, will be
> good
> > > enough to read this protest to their members, and in every instance
> when
> > > initiating a candidate to give him to understand-as I invariably
> do-the
> > > fact of our corporate neutrality. So convinced am I that the
> perpetuity
> > > of our Society depends upon our keeping closely to our legitimate
> > > province, and leaving Politics "severely alone," I shall use the
> full
> > > power permitted to me as President-Founder to suspend or expel every
> > > member, or even discipline or discharter any Branch which shall, by
> > > offending in this respect, imperil the work now so prosperously
> going on
> > > in various parts of the world."
> > > > http://www.teosofia.com/Mumbai/7112politics.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This alone leads me to consider whether Olcot and Blavatsky would
> not
> > > have expelled Annie Besant and perhaps even the present day
> Theosophical
> > > Society's leaders, because the do not in any clear manner reject
> > > political involvement - and the present day Constitution and
> Statutes
> > > have deleted the paragraph saying:
> > > > "ARTICLE XIII
> > > > Offences
> > > > 1. Any Fellow who shall in any way attempt to involve the Society
> In
> > > political disputes shall be immediately expelled."
> > > > (The Constitution and Statutes, written in The Theosophist, Januar
> > > 1891)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As long as no member in TS Adyar will go forward and clearly
> exlpain
> > > why it has been necessary to deviate from the original programe with
> > > regard to politics during Annie Besants leadership, and during the
> > > present day leadership, I se no reason to join the TS, because then
> it
> > > must really be a carcass reasting on no solid grounds.
> > > >
> > > > Silence is of course also an answer.
> > > > And we ask in the name of compassion: Is this how you promulagte
> > > theosophy? When will you teach theosophy proper?
> > > >
> > > > ----
> > > > (B)
> > > >
> > > > Carlos wrote:
> > > > "9) You fail to see that H.P.B.'s Theosophy is completely against
> any
> > > conception of a "unfailing leader", a concept which belongs to the
> > > Vatican, to Nazis, and to Fascists."
> > > >
> > > > M. Sufilight says:
> > > > This I write the following...
> > > > I wonder if Carlos fails to see, that the present day TS does not
> > > clearly and visibly seem offer such a view to outsiders and
> potential
> > > members about J. Krishnamurti's role in the TS of the past and the
> > > present?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well I found these question important to ask.
> > > > And one can only wonder whether the TS only promotes theosophy
> towards
> > > the Jews, and leave all honest Blavatskyan Theosophists in the cold.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > M. Sufilight
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: MKR
> > > > To: theos-talk
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2010 4:01 AM
> > > > Subject: Theos-World Blavatsky and Nazism
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The subject of the influence of HPB's writing on Nazism has been
> > > discussed
> > > > in the past in various forums.
> > > >
> > > > There is a very interesting discussion in a recent article at <
> > > > http://www.esoteric-philosophy.com/> titled:
> > > >
> > > > 'Message to an Author Who Did not Study Theosophy'. It is very
> well
> > > written
> > > > and theosophists would find it interesting.
> > > >
> > > > MKR
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Visite: www.filosofiaesoterica.com
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


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