Theos-Talk Archives (April 2010 Message tt00088)

Dear Duane

My views are:

Not please try to understand, that I write these words in this e-mail out of compassion so to if possible to be of service to all mankind.
I am not throwing "pet-mantras" here. I am seeking an honest exchange of views. When a person reading the below recognize the truth in the words, but refuse to act in accordance with this recognition and find it difficult to admit the truth and recognize his or her own faults, the please remember, that the Law of Karma always readjust and seek to help us all. And if the Law of Karma is too much to consider, then consider that we are here to learn the difference between good and evil until we have learned it throughly and utterly.


1.
Duane wrote:
"Mortonâs Christian âmessiah in the fleshâ concept may be more about his own prejudices then the real facts about what AAB has said about the possible reappearance of a Christ like force."

M. Sufilight says:
What prejudice if I may ask?

The fact is that AAB wrote about the Atma-Vidya doctrine, but certainly also that she down-watered it - heavily; - and emphasised the Doctrine about a Saviour in the Flesh, named the Christ! - And I wrote about this in an earlier e-mail in this thread and I have done it at this forum in the past.


H. P. Blavatsky - Esoteric Section -PRELIMINARY MEMORANDUM:

"(From the Letter of a Master.)

. . . . AND IF THE LIMBS HAVE TO DEFEND THE HEAD AND HEART OF 
THEIR BODY, THEN WHY NOT SO, ALSO, THE DISCIPLES THEIR TEACHERS AS REPRESENTING THE SCIENCE OF THEOSOPHY WHICH CONTAINS AND INCLUDES THE âHEADâ OF THEIR PRIVILEGE, THE âHEARTâ OF THEIR SPIRITUAL GROWTH? SAITH THE SCRIPTURE:-
âHE WHO WIPETH NOT AWAY THE FILTH WITH WHICH THE PARENTâS BODY MAY HAVE BEEN DEFILED BY AN ENEMY, NEITHER LOVES THE PARENT NOR HONOURS HIMSELF. HE WHO DEFENDETH NOT THE PERSECUTED AND THE HELPLESS, WHO GIVETH NOT OF HIS FOOD TO THE STARVING NOR DRAWETH WATER FROM HIS WELL FOR THE THIRSTY, HATH BEEN BORN TOO SOON IN HUMAN SHAPE.
âBEHOLD THE TRUTH BEFORE YOU: A CLEAN LIFE, AN OPEN MIND, A PURE HEART, AN EAGER INTELLECT, AN UNVEILED SPIRITUAL PERCEPTION, A BROTHERLINESS FOR ONEâS CO-DISCIPLE, A READINESS TO GIVE AND RECEIVE ADVICE AND INSTRUCTION, A LOYAL SENSE OF DUTY TO THE TEACHER, A WILLING OBEDIENCE TO THE BEHESTS OF TRUTH, ONCE WE HAVE PLACED OUR CONFIDENCE IN, AND BELIEVE THAT TEACHER TO BE IN POSSESSION OF IT; A COURAGEOUS ENDURANCE OF PERSONAL INJUSTICE, A BRAVE DECLARATION OF PRINCIPLES, A VALIANT DEFENCE OF THOSE WHO ARE UNJUSTLY ATTACKED, "


Why am I to be unjustly attacked?
_______

The fact is that AAB wrote what she wrote in the quotes I have given about the Messiah in the Flesh doctrine.

Alice A. Bailey wrote:
"We have fought over the historical Christ, and thus fighting, have lost sight of His message of love 
to all beings. Fanatics quarrel over His words, and fail to remember that He was "the Word made flesh." 
(From Bethlehem to Calvary, p. 7)
http://www.light-weaver.com/links/kingsgarden.books.htm

Alice A. Bailey wrote:
"Christianity is not a religion of the same order as the others; 
it is, as Schleiermacher said, the religion of religions."
 (From Bethlehem to Calvary, p. 8)
http://www.light-weaver.com/links/kingsgarden.books.htm

I find this to be enough. The fact that AAB was writing words in opposition to these words in the above at other places will not was the stain away.
Seeking to promote such a view is a false teaching. Emphasising it is even worse.

The fact is that AAB wrote about the Atma-Vidya doctrine, but certainly also that she down-watered it - heavily; - and emphasised the Doctrine about a Saviour in the Flesh, named the Christ!

So I see no reason to reject my statements by openly throwing undocumented insinuations or worse at me in e-mails to others at this forum, instead of answering my wellmeant questions.


2.
Duane wrote:
"Contrary to what many have posted here on this site AAB clearly puts the idea of the Cosmic Christ as an impersonal deity or power that expresses both intelligence and Love."

M. Sufilight says:
Yes, on this we can agree. But she in fact also wrote about Christ as a physical entity who would arrive at the end of the century in the physical in the flesh. And as we witness in the above quote by me, she had the view that the Christian religion was "the religion of the religions"!



Alice A. Bailey said:
"The trained intuitive or disciple lives ever the dual life of mundane activity and of intense and simultaneous spiritual reflection. This will be the outstanding characteristic of the Western disciple in contradistinction to the Eastern disciple who escapes from life into the silent places and away from the pressures of daily living and constant contact with others. The task of the Western disciple is much harder, but that which he will prove to himself and to the world as a whole will be still higher. 

This is to be expected if the evolutionary process means anything. The Western races must move forward into spiritual supremacy, without obliterating the Eastern contribution, and the functioning of the Law of Rebirth holds the clue to this and demonstrates this necessity. The [180] tide of life moves from East to West as moves the sun, and those who in past centuries struck the note of Eastern mysticism must strike and are now striking the note of Western occultism."
(Glamor a World Problem, p. 179-180)
http://www.light-weaver.com/links/kingsgarden.books.htm


AAB wrote:
"In the New Testament there is depicted for us the life of a Son of God in full manifestation, wherein, freed from every veil, the soul in its true nature walks the earth. It becomes apparent to us, as we study the life of Christ, what it means to develop the powers of the soul, to attain liberation, and become, in full glory, a God walking on earth."
(Dicsipleship in the New Age, vol. II, p. 149-151)
http://www.light-weaver.com/links/kingsgarden.books.htm


AAB wrote:
"The Great Invocation should be increasingly used, and daily and hourly must the Invocation be sent forth. The gist of that which is here set forth should be rearranged and readapted for the use of the general public for it is only through constant reiteration that men learn, and these things must be said again and again before the real work of the New Group of World Servers can make itself felt." (ES. Vol. II, p. 668)


H. B. Blavatsky wrote:
"It is, however, right that each member, once he believes in the existence of such Masters, should try to understand what their nature and powers are, to reverence Them in his heart, to draw near to Them, as much as in him lies, and to open up for himself conscious communication with the guru to whose bidding he has devoted his life. THIS CAN ONLY BE DONE BY RISING TO THE SPIRITUAL PLANE WHERE THE MASTERS ARE, AND NOT BY ATTEMPTING TO DRAW THEM DOWN TO OURS."
(BCW; Vol. XII, p. 492)
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v12/y1890_052.htm


I think I have seen enough.


3.
Duane wrote:
"To argue against the possible reappearance of a Christ or Buddha is to argue against the great Doctrine of Avatars supported by all esoteric and occult teachings.  In times of darkness a leader, a guide or persons connected to the highest levels will come to guide humanity. Not save them but to teach them the ancient occult arts and sciences. "

M. Sufilight says:
I ask: Will this happen so to Down-Water the Eastern Doctrine on Atma-Vidya, and happen because humanity need steppingstones and something else than what Buddha, Tsong-Kha-Pa, Shankara, Patanjali, Blavatsky, and the Masters of wisdom has offered - and instead what AAB emphasised - namely to confuse Saviour-emotionalism with Atma-Vidya? If so, I ask why on earth would you promote such a view?



4.
Duane wrote:
" To argue against the possible reappearance of a Christ or Buddha is to argue against the great Doctrine of Avatars supported by all esoteric and occult teachings. "

M. Sufilight says:
I am certainly not arguing against this possibility. But I am arguing against the EMPHASIS given by AAB on her quite dualistic doctrine which is promoting the use the Great Invocation to be song outloud  hourly and daily, without knowledge about the Atma-Vidya doctrine, so to help bring down the Avatars and the Masters to our plane instead if we lifting ourselves up on to theirs, namely the non-dualistic one - as given in the Atma-Vidya doctrine.



5.*
Duane wrote:
"Not save them but to teach them the ancient occult arts and sciences."

M. Sufilight says:
Aha...So the Christ is not a actual Saviour after all despite AAB and her Master are saying it hundres of times in the AAB books?
Come on Duane, this will not wash.


What I find the AAB followers are missing very often is the fact that if the Avatar of the Avatars arrives in the Flesh, the physical, - this same Avatar of the Avatars can only arrive in accordance with the Law of Karma - and - NOT in accordance with more or less selfish lip-prayers, and NEITHER in accordance with the hope that this manifestation will be understodd by all mankind. Because due to Karma we will find thousands and in fact millions react with fear and suspicion about such a persons arrival and who will consider such to be an evil magician or teacher. This happened in the old days and would happen again if it happened in these times of ours. And Karma does not permit the Avatars of the Avatars to help people more than their are in spiritual NEED of - and that in opposition to what they spiritually WANT. If the opposite is true, please tell us why.


Please read this carefully:
People are always looking for an Avatar or a Saviour; that does not mean that
this is the time for an Avatar or a Saviour. The problems that an Avatar or a Saviour would be
able to resolve have not been identified. Nor does the clamor mean
that those who cry out are suitable followers. Most of the people who
demand an Avatar or a Saviour seem to have some baby's idea of what an Avatar or a Saviour
should do. The idea that an Avatar or a Saviour will walk in and we will all
recognize him, her or it and follow this being and everybody will be happy strikes me
as a strangely immature atavism. Most of these people, I believe,
want not an Avatar or a Saviour but excitement. I doubt that those who cry the
loudest would obey an Avatar or a Saviour if there was one. Talk is cheap, and a
lot of the talk comes from millions of old washerwomen.
(Maybe the leaders at various theosophical groups would consider the above section.)


M. Sufilight


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Duane Carpenter 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 3:40 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Christ in the Physical Body


    
  Daniel 
  Thank you for all the supportive research and work you have done for this site and any research you may have generously done for me personally in the past.
   
  Mortonâs Christian âmessiah in the fleshâ concept may be more about his own prejudices then the real facts about what AAB has said about the possible reappearance of a Christ like force. Extracting bits and pieces from AAB works does not give a realistic overview of her teachings nor her philosophy on the subject. To reinforce ones  augments that are flawed from the start with quotes from HPB who ironically teaches the same truths is baffling to say the least.
  Contrast the next statement by AAB with Mortems pet-mantra-rallying cry âMessiah in the Fleshâ and you will get a clear idea of what I am saying.
   
   âThere have always been those in every land who developed and expressed the Christ consciousness; this is loving understanding and intelligent, living service, no matter by what words or terminology they expressed the tremendous spiritual event of which they were aware. â 
  The Kingdom of God is not Christian, or Buddhist, or to be found focused in any world religion or esoteric organization. It is simply and solely what it claims to be: a vast and integrated group of soul-infused persons, radiating [Page 408] love and spiritual intention, motivated by goodwill...â
   
  Contrary to what many have posted here on this site AAB clearly puts the idea of the Cosmic Christ as an impersonal deity or power that expresses both intelligence and Love. If that impersonal Christ force manifest through a physical body historically on the earth plane  in the past or possibly in the future  does not automatically disqualify that the source of that incarnation did not come from a very high place,. If I used the same logic and called HPB a âmessiah in the  fleshâ  simply because she was a very high initiate who happen to be working through a physical body fellow theosophist would be outraged and insulted and rightfully so.
  The quotes and passages that you have so generously given Daniel are not exactly the same words as I have requested. 
  An avatar appropriating a physical body as in the case of a Christ or Buddha to do their spiritual work on all levels is not the same idea or concept as a: âmessiah in the Flesh.â As Mortimer defines that term.
  Why is that so?
  A âmessiah in the fleshâ is a perverse distorted concept conjured up by a 6th ray devotional person who is waiting to be saved because they have not the ability nor the occult training to save themselves and the other is the idea of a Cosmic avatar that AAB speaks of who is a Being who descend from the greatest heights of cosmic love 2nd Ray, to help stimulate straggling humanity onto the spiritual path. 
   Each of these different concepts clearly stands in contradistinction to the other. 
   
  The âmessiah in the fleshâ concept used frequently by certain Born Again or fundamentalist Christian groups cannot be applied at random to the works of AAB. They simply do not fit.
  That would be equivalent of taking the teachings of the I Am movement the Summit Light house or Benjamin CrÃme and drawing parallels between there work and the great works of HPB. And then having the audacity to go even further and criticize HPB for teachings that in fact she never supported or taught.
   
   
   To argue against the possible reappearance of a Christ or Buddha is to argue against the great Doctrine of Avatars supported by all esoteric and occult teachings.  In times of darkness a leader, a guide or persons connected to the highest levels will come to guide humanity. Not save them but to teach them the ancient occult arts and sciences. Who would want to undermine or argue against such simple and obvious truths? AAB clearly states the Cosmic Christ she is referring to would clearly come from the Cosmic Astral plane.
   
  Thank you for the opportunity to share these important thoughts.
  Duane

  ________________________________
  From: Daniel <danielhcaldwell@yahoo.com>
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tue, April 20, 2010 11:49:38 AM
  Subject: Theos-World Christ in the Physical Body

    
  The link below goes to a compilation of Alice Bailey's own words indicating Christ in a PHYSICAL body.

  See:

  http://tinyurl. com/y5slrsh

  Compare Mrs. Bailey's view with H.P. Blavatky's view as given at:

  http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 54179

  Daniel Caldwell
  Blavatsky Archives
  http://blavatskyarchives.com

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