Theos-Talk Archives (October 2009 Message tt00168)

Every theosophist has their own opinion on every matter. That freedom of
opinion that differentiates theosophists from everyone else. If you put 100
theosophists in a room, they will have 1000 opinions. As chuck used to
comment, there may be a fight if 100 theosophists are there and the
atmosphere is right.

MKR

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 8:59 PM, Rose <fohatlife@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> I can understand the puritian sentiments of the times a century ago...
> But do today's Theosophist hold anti-masterbation sentiments in general?
> If so why?
>
> -Rosie
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2009, at 4:01 PM, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <
> global-theosophy@stofanet.dk <global-theosophy%40stofanet.dk>> wrote:
>
> Dear Martin
>
> Thanks.
>
> One might add the extremely stunning words from B. Keightley:
>
> "Mrs. Besant and the Alcyone Case"
> http://www.archive.org/details/mrsbesantalcyone00veririch
>
> And let us not forget who B. Keightley really was (Mr. Bertram Keightly is
> a Barrister-
> at-Law, and was the General Secretary of the Indian Section and also of the
> British Section of the Theosophical Society. He was also a member of the
> Esoteric School), - when Besant received her first clairvoyance, august
> 1895, according to CWL himself:
> http://www.katinkahesselink.net/other/leadb2.html
>
> Remember, these words was uttered at Court under Oath.
>
> Here are all five pages:
>
> ""CHAPTER XI.
> Evidence for the Plaintiff.
> On the 27th of March, Counsel read some of the
> evidence taken before the Commissioner, (see Chapter
> 9) ; and it has been found necessary to condense this
> here owing to want of space.
> Mr. Bertram Keightly, residing at Allahabad,
> United Province, being examined said :-
> "
> I am a Master of Arts and Barrister-at-Law. I
> was the General Secretary of the Indian Section of the
> Theosophical Society for several years and subsequently
> General Secretary of the British Section. I was the
> sole agent of the Esoteric Section in India under Madame
> Blavatsky. I was also a member of the General
> Council of the Theosophical Society, both ex-officio
> as General Secretary and subsequently. I know Mr,
> Leadbeter. I first met him in 1884, when he was a
> Curate of the Church of England. He left Ceylon in
> 1890, to the best of my belief. During the last fifteen
> years he has been one of the prominent leaders as also
> the writers and lecturers in the Theosophical movement.
> So he stands to the world as a teacher of Theosophy.
> He is a colleague of Mrs. Besant in Theosophical
> work ; and both of them are considered as "initiates
> "
> by
> some people.
> I remember the charges brought against Mr. Leadbeter
> by the American Section in 1906, and I believe
> the charges were brought on behalf of the American
> Section. Mr. Leadbeter was at that time a member of
>
> 118
>
> the British Section. He was also Presidential delegate.
> I believe a memorial was addressed to Mrs. Besant from
> America, giving evidence and charges against Mr. Leadbeter,
> and a copy of this memorial was sent to Mr.
> Leadbeter in 1906, but I could not be sure whether
> this was sent prior to the proceedings of the Advisory
> Committee or simultaneously. Mrs. Besant was certainly
> in India at the date of the Advisory Committee,
> and Mr. Leadbeter was present at the Committee in
> London. I believe the Executive of the American
> Section pressed for a searching investigation, and Mrs.
> Besant wrote a reply to the Memorial that had been
> sent to her from America, rather putting aside the idea
> of investigation. The American Section could not expel
> Mr. Leadbeter from the Society and that was why the
> President was moved in the matter. Colonel Olcott
> called together an Advisory Committee, consisting of the
> Executive Committee of the British Section, v/ith the
> addition of the representative of the French Section
> and a special representative on behalf of the American
> Section. I was one of the members of the Committee,
> the object of which was to advise Colonel Olcott in
> regard to what action he should take in respect of the
> charges brought against Mr. Leadbeter. The Committee
> was not in the position of a jury, but in that of an
> advisory body. The object of the enquiry v/as to uphold
> the honour of the Theosophical Society and keep its
> honour clean."
> Q.-' The Theosophical Society wanted to disown
> any association with a man who advocated the teaching
> of ... .- to young boys ?"
>
> 119
>
> (( A.- Yes.
> "
> Q.-" The charges were in the hands of each of
> the members of the Committee ?"
> A.-" Yes.
> "
> Q.-" Was Mr. Leadbeter given every opportunity
> to explain his position and justify his conduct? '*
> A.-"Yes."
> Q.-"
> Will you tell us what evidence you had at
> that time. ?
> "
> A.-"
> Speaking generally, and from memory only,
> I believe we had before us the confessions or rather
> admissions of one or more boys in America certified
> by the American Executive and also a letter of Mr.
> Leadbeter to Mr. FuUerton in which the former admitted
> having advised . . . .-. .... as a
> prophylactic measure."
> Being shewn a copy of Mr. Leadbeter's letter to
> Mr. FuUerton and asked to summarise the contents,
> witness said :-
> "
> Mr. Leadber states that the work of discovering
> and training liopeful young members of the Theosophical
> Society has been put into his charge. He finds that the
> .question of sex is of vital importance in their training,
> and that in the majority of cases great mischief results
> from suppressed thoughts and desires on such matters.
> He therefore in certain cases advised "".".'''"--=""."'.
> ^'Â
> Q.- This is exactly what he stated before the
> Committee ?"
>
> 120
>
> A.- Yes, both in the letter and before the Committee
> he emphasised the absence of any evil intention
> in connection with that advice."
> Q.-" The Committee was also of opinion that he
> had no evil intent ?
> "
> A.-"
> Yes, at first, but later his replies to questions
> put by members of the Committee caused some of themto
> come to a different conclusion." (Here witness
> entered into details that are not suitable for public
> reading).
> Q.-** Mr. Leadbeter referred to an organisation for
> young men which dealt with the matter in the same
> manner ?
> "
> A.-"
> Yes. He stated that such an organisation
> existed in the English Church."
> Q.-^" And he said that he expected it to be found
> in the Roman Catholic Church ?
> "
> A.--"Yes."
> Q.- Did Mr. Leadbeter express any regret for
> having taught these practices ?
> "
> A.-" No."
> Q.-Questioned as to the acceptance of the resignation
> of Mr. Leadbeter, witness said that some of the
> members of the Advisory Committee only agreed to its
> acceptance in order to secure unanimity in the decision
> of the Committee.
> Q.- State briefly what you know about the
> re-instatement of Mr. Leadbeter in the Society and the*
> consequences that ensued thereupon."
>
> 121
>
> A.-" When Mrs. Besant became a candidate for
> the Presidency of the Theosophical Society, she gave a
> pledge to the British Section not to move for the reinstatement
> of Mr. Leadbeter to the Society for two
> years from the summer of 1907. But before theexpiration
> of that time a strong agitation had sprung upin
> various parts of the Society in favour of Mr.
> Leadbeter's re-instatement. This culminated in the
> question being referred to the general vote of the Society
> at the close of 1908, or the beginning of 1909. A
> considerable majority having declared in favour of hisre-
> instatement, the result was the resignation from the
> Theosophical Society of a large number of the oldest
> and most respected members and a withdrawal fronn
> active work of many others."
> Q.-" You withdrew from the Society ?
> "
> A.-**
> I withdrew from active work in the Society."
> Cross-examined by Mrs. Besant, witness said that
> he left the Eastern School about 1908, after the
> decision of the Council with regard to Mr. Leadbeter.
> He did not hold the opinion that no boy should be put
> under Mr. Leadbeter's care until after the enquiry in
> 1906, although he had objected to Mr. Leadbeter's having
> his pupils sleeping in the same room as himself,,
> and had pointed out to Mrs. Besant how undesirable it
> was while Mr. Leadbeter was living at Avenue Road.
> Mrs. Besant ** You think that because people agree
> with me, they must be non-independent?"
> Witness.-"
> By no means, but when people tell me
> in all seriousness that a thing must be true because Mrsr
>
> 122
>
> Besant says it, whatever the evidence and facts may
> he, I cannot attach any high value to their opinion.'*
> Counsel in the course of reading Mr. Keightly's
> .evidence, remarked that the final decision of the Advisory
> Committee that met in 1906 was decided by Mr.
> Leadbeter's own statements, and an attempt was made
> by Mrs. Besant to justify the teaching.
> To this Mrs. Besant replied that she found the
> charges to be false, so she changed."
> http://www.archive.org/details/mrsbesantalcyone00veririch
>
> I find B. Keightley to be a very credible witness.
> So I wonder what on earth those self-proclaimed Arhats were doing but to
> throw the TS down the gutter?
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Martin
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 4:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Candles and the Sun
>
> I join your View Morten, so you'r not alone anymore :)
>
> ________________________________
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk<global-theosophy%40stofanet.dk>
> >
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sun, October 25, 2009 9:10:14 AM
> Subject: Fw: Theos-World Candles and the Sun
>
> Dear Do Thi Thuan and friends
>
> My views are:
>
> I am resending this e-mail to Theos-talk because some e-mails appears to
> get stuck before they arrive at Theos-talk, while others do not.
>
> And let me say, that the below e-mail is merely being sent because I find
> that the questions asked need to be clairified to the Seekers after truth as
> long as Annie Besant is being praised at TS Adyar as a great leader, as long
> as J. Krishnamurti is being forwarded as someone to - merely be believed -
> to be a World Teacher and a Messiah.
>
> Here we go again:
>
> So "Pathless" is not Pathless, but Path after all; and we are expected to
> find a clear spiritual logic in such a point of view?
> And a Guru is just a crutch, which is a nuisance?
> And comparative studying is unimportant; what is important is only to
> listen to J. Krishnamurti, who never praised any teaching but his own?
> And a Messiah-craze is the best theoosphy can arrive at?
>
> H. P. Blavatsky wrote:
> "CHELAS AND LAY CHELAS"
> http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v4/y1883_095.htm
>
> I somehow find it difficult to relate the above by H. P. Blavatsky with
> what J. Krishnamurti taught and was representing as a Messiah-craze with
> ribbons, badges, and J.K. insignia.
>
> M. Sufilight
>
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