Theos-Talk Archives (October 2009 Message tt00164)

I can understand the puritian sentiments of the times a century ago...
But do today's Theosophist hold anti-masterbation sentiments in general?
If so why?

-Rosie

On Oct 26, 2009, at 4:01 PM, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote:

Dear Martin

Thanks.

One might add the extremely stunning words from B. Keightley:

"Mrs. Besant and the Alcyone Case"
http://www.archive.org/details/mrsbesantalcyone00veririch

And let us not forget who B. Keightley really was (Mr. Bertram Keightly is a Barrister- 
at-Law, and was the General Secretary of the Indian Section and also of the British Section of the Theosophical Society. He was also a member of the Esoteric School), - when Besant received her first clairvoyance, august 1895, according to CWL himself:
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/other/leadb2.html

Remember, these words was uttered at Court under Oath.

Here are all five pages:

""CHAPTER XI.
Evidence for the Plaintiff.
On the 27th of March, Counsel read some of the
evidence taken before the Commissioner, (see Chapter
9) ; and it has been found necessary to condense this
here owing to want of space.
Mr. Bertram Keightly, residing at Allahabad,
United Province, being examined said :-
"
I am a Master of Arts and Barrister-at-Law. I
was the General Secretary of the Indian Section of the
Theosophical Society for several years and subsequently
General Secretary of the British Section. I was the
sole agent of the Esoteric Section in India under Madame
Blavatsky. I was also a member of the General
Council of the Theosophical Society, both ex-officio
as General Secretary and subsequently. I know Mr,
Leadbeter. I first met him in 1884, when he was a
Curate of the Church of England. He left Ceylon in
1890, to the best of my belief. During the last fifteen
years he has been one of the prominent leaders as also
the writers and lecturers in the Theosophical movement.
So he stands to the world as a teacher of Theosophy.
He is a colleague of Mrs. Besant in Theosophical
work ; and both of them are considered as "initiates
"
by
some people.
I remember the charges brought against Mr. Leadbeter
by the American Section in 1906, and I believe
the charges were brought on behalf of the American
Section. Mr. Leadbeter was at that time a member of

118

the British Section. He was also Presidential delegate.
I believe a memorial was addressed to Mrs. Besant from
America, giving evidence and charges against Mr. Leadbeter,
and a copy of this memorial was sent to Mr.
Leadbeter in 1906, but I could not be sure whether
this was sent prior to the proceedings of the Advisory
Committee or simultaneously. Mrs. Besant was certainly
in India at the date of the Advisory Committee,
and Mr. Leadbeter was present at the Committee in
London. I believe the Executive of the American
Section pressed for a searching investigation, and Mrs.
Besant wrote a reply to the Memorial that had been
sent to her from America, rather putting aside the idea
of investigation. The American Section could not expel
Mr. Leadbeter from the Society and that was why the
President was moved in the matter. Colonel Olcott
called together an Advisory Committee, consisting of the
Executive Committee of the British Section, v/ith the
addition of the representative of the French Section
and a special representative on behalf of the American
Section. I was one of the members of the Committee,
the object of which was to advise Colonel Olcott in
regard to what action he should take in respect of the
charges brought against Mr. Leadbeter. The Committee
was not in the position of a jury, but in that of an
advisory body. The object of the enquiry v/as to uphold
the honour of the Theosophical Society and keep its
honour clean."
Q.-' The Theosophical Society wanted to disown
any association with a man who advocated the teaching
of ... .- to young boys ?"

119

(( A.- Yes.
"
Q.-" The charges were in the hands of each of
the members of the Committee ?"
A.-" Yes.
"
Q.-" Was Mr. Leadbeter given every opportunity
to explain his position and justify his conduct? '*
A.-"Yes."
Q.-"
Will you tell us what evidence you had at
that time. ?
"
A.-"
Speaking generally, and from memory only,
I believe we had before us the confessions or rather
admissions of one or more boys in America certified
by the American Executive and also a letter of Mr.
Leadbeter to Mr. FuUerton in which the former admitted
having advised . . . .-. .... as a
prophylactic measure."
Being shewn a copy of Mr. Leadbeter's letter to
Mr. FuUerton and asked to summarise the contents,
witness said :-
"
Mr. Leadber states that the work of discovering
and training liopeful young members of the Theosophical
Society has been put into his charge. He finds that the
.question of sex is of vital importance in their training,
and that in the majority of cases great mischief results
from suppressed thoughts and desires on such matters.
He therefore in certain cases advised "".".'''"--=""."'.
^'»
Q.- This is exactly what he stated before the
Committee ?"

120

A.- Yes, both in the letter and before the Committee
he emphasised the absence of any evil intention
in connection with that advice."
Q.-" The Committee was also of opinion that he
had no evil intent ?
"
A.-"
Yes, at first, but later his replies to questions
put by members of the Committee caused some of themto
come to a different conclusion." (Here witness
entered into details that are not suitable for public
reading).
Q.-** Mr. Leadbeter referred to an organisation for
young men which dealt with the matter in the same
manner ?
"
A.-"
Yes. He stated that such an organisation
existed in the English Church."
Q.-^" And he said that he expected it to be found
in the Roman Catholic Church ?
"
A.--"Yes."
Q.- Did Mr. Leadbeter express any regret for
having taught these practices ?
"
A.-" No."
Q.-Questioned as to the acceptance of the resignation
of Mr. Leadbeter, witness said that some of the
members of the Advisory Committee only agreed to its
acceptance in order to secure unanimity in the decision
of the Committee.
Q.- State briefly what you know about the
re-instatement of Mr. Leadbeter in the Society and the*
consequences that ensued thereupon."

121

A.-" When Mrs. Besant became a candidate for
the Presidency of the Theosophical Society, she gave a
pledge to the British Section not to move for the reinstatement
of Mr. Leadbeter to the Society for two
years from the summer of 1907. But before theexpiration
of that time a strong agitation had sprung upin
various parts of the Society in favour of Mr.
Leadbeter's re-instatement. This culminated in the
question being referred to the general vote of the Society
at the close of 1908, or the beginning of 1909. A
considerable majority having declared in favour of hisre-
instatement, the result was the resignation from the
Theosophical Society of a large number of the oldest
and most respected members and a withdrawal fronn
active work of many others."
Q.-" You withdrew from the Society ?
"
A.-**
I withdrew from active work in the Society."
Cross-examined by Mrs. Besant, witness said that
he left the Eastern School about 1908, after the
decision of the Council with regard to Mr. Leadbeter.
He did not hold the opinion that no boy should be put
under Mr. Leadbeter's care until after the enquiry in
1906, although he had objected to Mr. Leadbeter's having
his pupils sleeping in the same room as himself,,
and had pointed out to Mrs. Besant how undesirable it
was while Mr. Leadbeter was living at Avenue Road.
Mrs. Besant ** You think that because people agree
with me, they must be non-independent?"
Witness.-"
By no means, but when people tell me
in all seriousness that a thing must be true because Mrsr

122

Besant says it, whatever the evidence and facts may
he, I cannot attach any high value to their opinion.'*
Counsel in the course of reading Mr. Keightly's
.evidence, remarked that the final decision of the Advisory
Committee that met in 1906 was decided by Mr.
Leadbeter's own statements, and an attempt was made
by Mrs. Besant to justify the teaching.
To this Mrs. Besant replied that she found the
charges to be false, so she changed."
http://www.archive.org/details/mrsbesantalcyone00veririch

I find B. Keightley to be a very credible witness.
So I wonder what on earth those self-proclaimed Arhats were doing but to throw the TS down the gutter?

M. Sufilight

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Martin 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2009 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Candles and the Sun

I join your View Morten, so you'r not alone anymore :)

________________________________
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, October 25, 2009 9:10:14 AM
Subject: Fw: Theos-World Candles and the Sun

Dear Do Thi Thuan and friends

My views are:

I am resending this e-mail to Theos-talk because some e-mails appears to get stuck before they arrive at Theos-talk, while others do not.

And let me say, that the below e-mail is merely being sent because I find that the questions asked need to be clairified to the Seekers after truth as long as Annie Besant is being praised at TS Adyar as a great leader, as long as J. Krishnamurti is being forwarded as someone to - merely be believed - to be a World Teacher and a Messiah.

Here we go again:

So "Pathless" is not Pathless, but Path after all; and we are expected to find a clear spiritual logic in such a point of view?
And a Guru is just a crutch, which is a nuisance?
And comparative studying is unimportant; what is important is only to listen to J. Krishnamurti, who never praised any teaching but his own?
And a Messiah-craze is the best theoosphy can arrive at?

H. P. Blavatsky wrote:
"CHELAS AND LAY CHELAS"
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v4/y1883_095.htm

I somehow find it difficult to relate the above by H. P. Blavatsky with what J. Krishnamurti taught and was representing as a Messiah-craze with ribbons, badges, and J.K. insignia.

M. Sufilight

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