Theos-Talk Archives (July 2009 Message tt00518)

MKR,

In ordinary English, a messenger means a message bearer and generally, a message bearer bears messages from someone else. That is he serves as someone else's voice. So whose voice are you bearing?

Just curious. And i hope you don't at all mind that i will choose to call you MKR even though you seem to prefer to be known as messenger. 

Preethi

--- On Wed, 29/7/09, Messenger <mkr777@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Messenger <mkr777@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: A TS member's observation on non-existent Problem
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 29 July, 2009, 5:57 PM






Â




    
                  Everyone knows who Anton is.  It was never my intention to question his

identity. If there is even slightest misperception that I am doubting his

identity, my personal apologies to him.



In all my messages posted here and elsewhere, I speak only for myself. This

I have stated before. This continues today and will be so in the future.  I

am just an ordinary member and I have not held any office nor plan to hold

any in the future. So my position should be clear to everyone.



I signed as Messenger so that no one confuses between message and the

messenger. As I mentioned in my msg, I will soon post a msg discussing the

issues, in my opinion, important to the TS today. Please keep tuned.



Messenger aka MKR



visit www.theosophy. net



On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 4:59 AM, Anton Rozman <anton_rozman@ yahoo.com>wrote:



>

>

> Hi Ramadoss,

>

> Or should I now call you Messenger (of some formal or informal group)?

>

> The passage you presented is extracted from the topic I opened on the

> Theosophical Community under the title: "Have we a problem?"

>

> http://theosophical .ning.com/ forum/topics/ have-we-a- problem

>

> The specific words are those of Will Morrow in his Comment 7687:

>

>

> http://theosophical .ning.com/ forum/topics/ have-we-a- problem?page= 1&commentId= 2060685%3ACommen t%3A7687& x=1#2060685Comme nt7687

>

> So, those interested can check the entire discussion to see those words in

> proper context, but here is my reply to those Will Morrow's words as posted

> on the Community:

>

> "I naturally supposed and wrote that there will be probably many who will

> have different opinion. I don't have problem with that and do not force

> anyone to change it.

>

> I hope that this relatively new way of free expression of ideas and views

> through internet will be sooner or later regarded as an enrichment of

> Society's life. But as every new thing it obviously provokes some doubts."

>

> In your extract (below) you additionally substituted the name of Joe

> (Fulton) with xxx probably because in that comment (later on deleted because

> Joe left the Theosophical Community) Joe actually supported my views about

> lack of common vision concerning the nature of the Theosophical Society.

>

> "This has happened many times before (As seen in xxx's - Joe's - comment

> below - where all of those who believed their sectarianism was THE correct

> one started their own TS) and will continue."

>

> More over, this lack of common vision is one of the "hot" topics on the

> Theosophical Network and I understand its slogan "Embrace-Compare- Explore"

> as one of the attempts to define it more clearly. Anyway, we will see if Joe

> has anything to say on this.

>

> You wrote: "When we look at the discussions on operational matters of TS

> brought up by some, many frequent participants and others have contributed

> their views and arguments. Some were very passionate. In the case of some of

> them, many had serious doubts about their real identities especially when

> unsubstantiated allegations were made by them."

>

> So, you avoid addressing me directly to check my real identity and you call

> views I present "unsubstantiated allegations" . Why? I have no problem to

> offer you my personal data which you anyway know all too well as you know

> well my views which are equally publicly presented on my web site and on

> e-mail lists. But if this is not enough for you then come here in Koper and

> check all you want personally. But this is not the point, isn't it?

>

> No, you rather hide behind those "many" who "had serious doubts" and who

> hide their identity on the Theosophical Community and the Theosophical

> Network behind various symbols and actually spread "unsubstantiated

> allegations" as I didn't see any serious analysis of the current situation

> in the TS from the part of persons of this (formal or informal) group of

> people.

>

> "But when disguise is used to avoid personal responsibility for their

> statements, it is a wholly different matter. We know what happens when the

> disguise is about to be unmasked. They disappear, not to be seen again.."

>

> So, maybe you could start in first place to identify who are "we", "many",

> Messenger of which group or network you are and what are actually your group

> views on the current situation in the TS and its future besides supporting

> the illegal activity of the TS President and Mr. Pedro Oliveira.

>

> You know, the methods you use are very familiar to me as they were used

> against me by Communist Party and its political police and now their

> "democratic" successors, as well as by Head of my theosophical mother lodge,

> so I have something less than thirty years of experience with this kind of

> operation. And I can equally understand your disappointment when I didn't

> want to accept your proposed unethical behavior towards those who contact me

> as this also happened many times before.

>

> I don't fear the consequences for, as I already said, I don't have much to

> loose. But I certainly don't want to loose my human right for personal

> freedom and free expression of views and ideas. I don't have intention to

> disappear or to finish my life yet although it would be great relief as I am

> really tired to fight this unequal battle.

>

> So, go ahead and good luck,

> Anton

>

> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>,

> Messenger <mkr777@...> wrote:

> >

> > A TS memberÃââs observation on non-existent Problem

> >

> > Sometime ago, a very observant TS member wrote in an online forum:

> >

> > ÃâËIt appears to me that the difference in our opinion is the premise you

> > state: "that Theosophical Society has definite difficulties in its

> > functioning and further on assumed that these difficulties are related to

> > the: .. Lack of clear common vision about the nature of our Society.Ãâ

> >

> > Many of us don't see it the way you present it and therefore don't agree

> > with either your presumption that there is a problem or your presumed

> > solution to a non-existant problem. This recent activity identifying the

> > "difficulties" within the TS appears to simply be the campaigning by

> > individuals (yourself included) to project their own ideas onto the

> > membership at large. This has happened many times before (As seen in

> xxx's

> > comment below - where all of those who believed their sectarianism was

> THE

> > correct one started their own TS) and will continue..Ãâ

> >

> > When we look at the discussions on operational matters of TS brought up

> by

> > some, many frequent participants and others have contributed their views

> > and arguments. Some were very passionate. In the case of some of them,

> many

> > had serious doubts about their real identities especially when

> > unsubstantiated allegations were made by them. But when disguise is used

> to

> > avoid personal responsibility for their statements, it is a wholly

> different

> > matter. We know what happens when the disguise is about to be unmasked.

> > They disappear, not to be seen again.

> >

> > In the light of the above and other discussions on this list, it is time

> to

> > look at and see what are the real immediate key issues around the TS

> where

> > it is worthwhile to concentrate our efforts. I will try to discuss them

> in a

> > message I plan to post soon.

> >

> > Messenger (aka MKR)

> >

> > Visit www.theosophy. net and enjoy

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

>

>  

>



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