Theos-Talk Archives (July 2009 Message tt00512)

Hi Ramadoss,

Or should I now call you Messenger (of some formal or informal group)? 

The passage you presented is extracted from the topic I opened on the Theosophical Community under the title: "Have we a problem?"

http://theosophical.ning.com/forum/topics/have-we-a-problem

The specific words are those of Will Morrow in his Comment 7687:

http://theosophical.ning.com/forum/topics/have-we-a-problem?page=1&commentId=2060685%3AComment%3A7687&x=1#2060685Comment7687

So, those interested can check the entire discussion to see those words in proper context, but here is my reply to those Will Morrow's words as posted on the Community:

"I naturally supposed and wrote that there will be probably many who will have different opinion. I don't have problem with that and do not force anyone to change it.

I hope that this relatively new way of free expression of ideas and views through internet will be sooner or later regarded as an enrichment of Society's life. But as every new thing it obviously provokes some doubts."

In your extract (below) you additionally substituted the name of Joe (Fulton) with xxx probably because in that comment (later on deleted because Joe left the Theosophical Community) Joe actually supported my views about lack of common vision concerning the nature of the Theosophical Society. 

"This has happened many times before (As seen in xxx's - Joe's - comment below - where all of those who believed their sectarianism was THE correct one started their own TS) and will continue."

More over, this lack of common vision is one of the "hot" topics on the Theosophical Network and I understand its slogan "Embrace-Compare-Explore" as one of the attempts to define it more clearly. Anyway, we will see if Joe has anything to say on this.

You wrote: "When we look at the discussions on operational matters of TS brought up by some, many frequent participants and others have contributed their views and arguments. Some were very passionate. In the case of some of them, many had serious doubts about their real identities especially when unsubstantiated allegations were made by them."

So, you avoid addressing me directly to check my real identity and you call views I present "unsubstantiated allegations". Why? I have no problem to offer you my personal data which you anyway know all too well as you know well my views which are equally publicly presented on my web site and on e-mail lists. But if this is not enough for you then come here in Koper and check all you want personally. But this is not the point, isn't it?

No, you rather hide behind those "many" who "had serious doubts" and who hide their identity on the Theosophical Community and the Theosophical Network behind various symbols and actually spread "unsubstantiated allegations" as I didn't see any serious analysis of the current situation in the TS from the part of persons of this (formal or informal) group of people. 

"But when disguise is used to avoid personal responsibility for their statements, it is a wholly different matter. We know what happens when the disguise is about to be unmasked. They disappear, not to be seen again."

So, maybe you could start in first place to identify who are "we", "many", Messenger of which group or network you are and what are actually your group views on the current situation in the TS and its future besides supporting the illegal activity of the TS President and Mr. Pedro Oliveira. 

You know, the methods you use are very familiar to me as they were used against me by Communist Party and its political police and now their "democratic" successors, as well as by Head of my theosophical mother lodge, so I have something less than thirty years of experience with this kind of operation. And I can equally understand your disappointment when I didn't want to accept your proposed unethical behavior towards those who contact me as this also happened many times before. 

I don't fear the consequences for, as I already said, I don't have much to loose. But I certainly don't want to loose my human right for personal freedom and free expression of views and ideas. I don't have intention to disappear or to finish my life yet although it would be great relief as I am really tired to fight this unequal battle.

So, go ahead and good luck,
Anton


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Messenger <mkr777@...> wrote:
>
> A TS memberâ??s observation on non-existent Problem
> 
> Sometime ago, a very observant TS member wrote in an online forum:
> 
> â??It appears to me that the difference in our opinion is the premise you
> state: "that Theosophical Society has definite difficulties in its
> functioning and further on assumed that these difficulties are related to
> the: .. Lack of clear common vision about the nature of our Society.â??
> 
> Many of us don't see it the way you present it and therefore don't agree
> with either your presumption that there is a problem or your presumed
> solution to a non-existant problem. This recent activity identifying the
> "difficulties" within the TS appears to simply be the campaigning by
> individuals (yourself included) to project their own ideas onto the
> membership at large. This has happened many times before (As seen in xxx's
> comment below - where all of those who believed their sectarianism was THE
> correct one started their own TS) and will continue..â??
> 
> When we look at the discussions on operational matters of TS brought up by
> some, many  frequent participants and others have contributed their views
> and arguments. Some were very passionate. In the case of some of them, many
> had serious doubts about their real identities especially when
> unsubstantiated allegations were made by them. But when disguise is used to
> avoid personal responsibility for their statements, it is a wholly different
> matter.  We know what happens when the disguise is about to be unmasked.
> They disappear, not to be seen again.
> 
> In the light of the above and other discussions on this list, it is time to
> look at and see what are the real immediate key issues around the TS where
> it is worthwhile to concentrate our efforts. I will try to discuss them in a
> message I plan to post soon.
> 
> Messenger (aka MKR)
> 
> Visit  theosophy.net  and enjoy
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>