Re: Theos-World Re: Strange pattern of secrecy/non transparency
Jun 21, 2009 06:14 AM
by Antonio
Hi Morten,
Many thanks for the breakdown.
My views are as follows:
So as i understand it there are 3 main objectives.
First to form a nucleas of universal brotherhood for humanity.
This to me is indicitive of creating a centre point of interconnected people within the TS to serve humanity. Is this the case? As i understand it no. A nucleas for humanity would not have discord or in-fighting. I universal brotherhood is one where all members have the same outlook or consciousness and work together for the advancment of humanity. As far as i can tell from posts on the forum this is not the case. This would then beg the question as to why this transformation has not yet occured. Has the core of the TS not yet evolved into this mind state? Are there different factions within the core pulling in different directions? And if so what is the best way to overcome this issue and find a more universally gratifying one?
The second issue regarding the promotion to the whole of humanity of the teachings of Theosophy is somthing i feel has not yet happened. In my studies i have come across many writings that suggest in the end times a universal religion will come along and overshadow all other religions. It will be the base religion/philosophy/tradition for all future generations. At one point i thought this may have been freemasonry however i would have to say my view has now shifted to that of theosophy as it encompasses the teaching of all religions and faiths and serves humanity at large rather than secularly. The fact this has not yet happend for the whole of humanity shows that its promotion or teachings are yet to be accepted as mainstream and in order for this to happen there will need to be a major shift in consciousness. Hopefully if and when this occurs the first objective is achieved! ;)
The third regarding the exploration of universal forces and the psychic powers in man is something more interesting and for me is more personal than the first and second objective. It is about the science of self realisation or reaching the highest possible point of spiritual evolution. In otherwords it is almost like being re-born anew. Only once this is acheived can we truely focus of psychic abilities. This is not to say that it can not be acheived without full realisation as there are many instances like de ja vu, coincidences, visions, prophetic dreams and such like things which all lean towards hidden innate powers dormant in humanity which science can not explain. I think only when we are fully realised supream beings can this dormant power be accsessed succsessfully and fully.
Regarding your disappointment with the TS Adyar and TS members, because they will not
answer you on why they keep defending their CWL and Annie Besant and J.
Krishnamurti' s doctrines despite the above view. I think it is important to establish why you are dissapointed. What is it your hope to here of in their feed back. Perhaps we can explore this together and see where we end up. I take it that Krishnamurti was prime and prepped to take on the role of the coming world leader and he refused this title. Is this still the case? If so perhaps their acceptence of this would undermine their validity within the TS. It is almost like saying "hey guys heres the world teacher, ops hang on no sorry we got it wrong the world teacher is now saying he is not the world teacher" to admit to such a mistake would make them look silly and perhaps this is the reasoning behind why you are dissapointed or perhaps i have your statment mixed up and have missinterpreted?
Regarding the points you expressed on the TS changing the way they administer the TS doctrine to humanity changing. I think this like all manor of traditions has to change. I also thing like the change of religion through the ages it is extreamly easy to lose the root teachings or lessons rather like a game of chinese whispers. Where one sentence is started at the root of a chain of people and is whispered from one person to the next and by the time the last person is whispered to and announces to the group what was whispered it is usually always different from the root sentence. I think taking this into consideration it is important to always consider the root of TS and not the evolved objectives. When all decisions are made for humanity through the TS without holding to the root core objectives you lose the essence of the movement itself and it becomes something of a distorted representation. I think things will always change but in order for things to
be executed effectivly within TS some things must never change.
The last point you addressed regarding not being able to put the experience of universal consciousness into words is, i feel down to a possible lack of creativity. I think with the correct imagination one can create anything the mind soul or body can expereince in words alone. Words are like poetry and art when used correctly they can convey the most simplest or complex ideas and for the reader it can be the most illuminating thing they ever read. I think this particular expereince has already been writen of especially when you look at scripts like the Tao and realise the essence of the force in question and the way it is articulated in writing.
It is not an impossibility is all that i am saying just something that may require more time, concentration, creativity and imagination.
Being beyond thoughts and time for me simply means being at peace with the creator. Connecting on such a level that all nerve endings disseminate leaving you feeling relaxed and in a state of tranquile euphoria. Being able to breath in and absorb that breath as though it was food , food for the soul, energising you beyond sciences interpretations of physiology.
All in all i think in order to start a new more universal faction of TS we would all need to lay our cards on the table and be open and honest to the point where nothing more is hidden or covered and until humanity can learn to trust one another in this capacity there will be no fulfilment in the objectives of the TS.
But these are simply my views.
Peace and blessings
Antonio
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--- On Sun, 21/6/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Strange pattern of secrecy/non transparency
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 21 June, 2009, 7:41 AM
Dear friends and Antonio
My views are:
Here is my answer to your questions. Others would give you another answer.
>>> 1. <<<
Antonio wrote:
"Given that i do not know much about TS and its aims, goals and objectives is there a set list you could email me please?"
M. Sufilight answers:
The original ones, which was used when H. P. Blavatsky died was the following...
*** A ***
The Theosophist - January 1891:
"ARTICLE I
Constitution
1. The title of this Society, which was formed at New York, United States of America, on the 17th of November 1875, is the "Theosophical Society."
2. The Theosophical Society is an International Body.
3. The objects of the Theosophical Society are: First. - To form the nucleus of a Universal Brotherhood of Humanity, without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or colour. Second. - To promote the study of Aryan and other Eastern literatures, religions, philosophies and sciences, and to demonstrate their importance to Humanity. Third. - To investigate unexplained laws of Nature and the psychic powers latent in man.
4. The Theosophical Society is absolutely unsectarian, and no assent to any formula of belief, faith or creed shall be required as a qualification of membership; but every applicant and member must lie in sympathy with the effort to create the nucleus of an Universal Brotherhood of Humanity.
5. The Society does not interfere with caste rules, nor other social observances, nor with politics, and any such interference in its name is a breach of the constitution. The Society is not responsible for the personal opinions of its Fellows. "
http://home1. stofanet. dk/theos- octagon/ts_ constitution_ rules.HTM
Let us remember, that EASTERN literature was important when H. P. Blavatsky lived.
The Alice A. Bailey groups and others even within the TS has sought to change this into a western emphasis. And we wonder why.
It is according to my view important to ask whether there has been false Christians who havd sought to infiltrate the theosohical teachings with Western and Christian-like teachings?
*** B ***
And one aught to add the following from H. P. Blavatsky's book the Key to Theosophy...
THE KEY TO THEOSOPHY, 2. ed., 1890, p.2-6, 17:
"Dedicated by "H. P. B." To all her Pupils that They may Learn and Teach in their turn."
...
"ENQUIRER. What was the object of this system?
THEOSOPHIST. First of all to inculcate certain great moral truths upon its disciples, and all those who were "lovers of the truth." Hence the motto adopted by the Theosophical Society: "There is no religion higher than truth." â The chief aim of the Founder of the Eclectic Theosophical School was one of the three objects of its modern successor, the Theosophical Society, namely, to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities."
...
"o prove this was the aim of Ammonius, who endeavoured to induce Gentiles and Christians, Jews and Idolaters, to lay aside their contentions and strifes, remembering only that they were all in possession of the same truth under various vestments, and were all the children of a common mother. * This is the aim of Theosophy likewise. "
...
"The Theosophical Society was organized for the purpose of promulgating the Theosophical doctrines, and for the promotion of the Theosophic life."
- - -
Now this was the foundation, which H. P. Blavatsky build her TS objects upon together with H. S. Olcott and W. Q. Judge. All later deviations from these object aught to be compared and given the value they truely deserve.
The Ibjects was build on the objects which Ammonious Saccas and Pot-Amun gave. And these objects again was and had been the basis of the Wisdom teachings through out the ages. Yet, in 1875 they say the light for the first time in centuries to a world wide audience, and not only a western one, middle eastern one or an asian one etc. etc.
Now I claim, that Alice A. Bailey changed this in a her Esoteric Lucis Trust.
Try look at Alice B. Bailey, Discipleship in the New Age (Lucis Press, 1955), Vol.II, p.220.)
And J. Krishnamurti definitely abandoned it in 1929, if he not already had abandoned it under the guidance of Annoe Besant and CWL since the began to promote him as World Teacher - with all the emotional consequences such a promotion has - two of them being: Most of the people who demand a leader seem to have some baby's idea of what a leader should do. The idea that a leader will walk in and we will all recognize him and follow him and everybody will be happy strikes me as a strangely immature atavism.
I think this sums it up pretty easily.
Any readers may correct me if I am wrong. So far I have been a bit disappointed with the TS Adyar and TS members, because they will not answer me on why they keep defending their CWL and Annie Besant and J. Krishnamurti' s doctrines despite the above view.
- - - - - - -
>>> 2. <<<
Antonio wrote:
"I mean do the goals change depending on the person at the time or do they always remain the same from the outset?"
M. Sufilight answers:
A very good question, I think. The goals are bound to change on the surface. The essence is always the same in this Maha-Manvantara.
My views are, that, we aught to remember, that although the Theosophical Society was founded for the promulgation of theosophy, and thereby the Wisdom Teachings of all Ages, - the METHODS used for this promotion of goals can easily change in accordance with time, place, people and circumstances. Master K. H. said something about this in letter No. 4 to A. P. Sinnett. K. H. said in 1880: "You see then, that we have weightier matters than small societies to think about; yet, the T.S. must not be neglected."
The Sufis as well as the theosophist operates through DESIGN and MEASUREMENT.
This e-mail is for instance what we call a DESIGN. The Secret Doctrine by H. P. Blavatsky was a DESIGN. When Master Morya materialised in front of Olcott in 1876, this whole event was a DESIGN. A persons incarnation taken as a whole can be said to be a DESIGN. Depending on how people react to each DESIGN, the Sufi or Initiate MEASURES the Seeker or Individual. And later a new DESIGN may be forwarded, when time is right. And it is of course not always the same who is forwarding a given design. - And that is perhaps why those beginners, who learn the most goes through learning about at least more than one or two ideologies in their lifes.
DESIGNS operates on several levels on the spiritual Path.
Very important: The use of ideas is to shape a man or woman, not to support a system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in which the Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of ideas and movements. This seems important to understand and know about.
- - - - - - -
>>> 3. <<<
Antonio wrote:
"Also do all TS members totally agree with all the objectives/aims or has there come a time where these goals were changed to suit the TS at any given time throughout its history?
Not sure if you can answer these questions but i think it would go a long way to figuring out if the current TS is doing what they are supposed to be doing."
M. Sufilight answers:
Look in the above on my views about AAB, CWL, Besant, and Krishnamurti.
So yes, they have been changed to a certain degree by some members, who most often left the TS, when it did not suit them. The present TS may be do follow (and may be not) the original programme given by HPB and H.S. Olcott. You will have to ask them. My view is that they a use a strange manner of keeping the objects, simply because they allow the World Teacher scheme (i.e. CWL's and Besants very emotionalized promotion of Krishnamurti) to be called a promulgation of theosophical teachings. And claiming that this World Teacher endorsed the creation of the Phallic oriented LCC (Liberal Catholic Church) cannot be theosophical teaching either. Now LCC's rites are even today being performed on the TS Adyar compound.
Yes, perhaps you are right, that it would be to "go a long way to figuring out if the current TS is doing what they are supposed to be doing."
We aught also to have in mind that TS at H. P. Blavatsky's time was not the same as TS at Ammonious Saccas or Pot-Amun's time or Buddha's time. H. P. Blavatsky and friends used the telegraph. The present TS seems a bit frozen and grumpy - and seem almost to think of the Internet as a virus at best.
And perhaps they are right, and perhaps not. One person once said to me buying a computer is to mock the poor who is starving in Africa. But Inside I am in a need for prioritizing.
- - - - - - -
>>> 4. <<<
Antonio wrote:
"As i understand it and quote me if i am wrong but are the objectives to bring humanity to one state of consciousness? A botherly and sisterly connection amongst all humans? A persuit for truth? a progression to enlightenment or spiritual evolution? Finding the divine spark both within ourselves and collectivly? "
M. Sufilight answers:
I would say, that what most people consider the term "one state of consciousness" to be is not what it in reality are meant to be when viewed by the Initate or the Masters.
When you are a capeable Master you can materialise into any body of your chosing. You can in fact also copy other human beings three lower bodies down to the dot. The same can be said about peoples ability to sit on a chariot like Krishna with your horse and Arjuna at your side. (It is in fact after all not that difficult to learn how to run a chariot. -Smile). Of course Karma, altruism and compassion should not be neglected, because they are primary in importance. In the same manner, we can say, that when the Maha-Pralaya arrives and further when one "arrives" at ParaBrahm, one is beyond thoughts and time. To write about something which "is" beyond thoughts and time is not quite possible. So I lack words. Compassion is silent and in its prescene we remain silent and will have to dwell. And I hope you will understand what I am saying.
But that abode mentioned by Krishna in Bhagavad Gita, chapter 8, v16-22 - that is the abode i am walking towards. And I claim that all the members at this forum will go there, or have gone already.
- - -
What are your own views?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Antonio
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Strange pattern of secrecy/non transparency
Hi Morten,
Given that i do not know much about TS and its aims, goals and objectives is there a set list you could email me please?
I mean do the goals change depending on the person at the time or do they always remain the same from the outset?
Also do all TS members totally agree with all the objectives/aims or has there come a time where these goals were changed to suit the TS at any given time throughout its history?
Not sure if you can answer these questions but i think it would go a long way to figuring out if the current TS is doing what they are supposed to be doing.
As i understand it and quote me if i am wrong but are the objectives to bring humanity to one state of consciousness? A botherly and sisterly connection amongst all humans? A persuit for truth? a progression to enlightenment or spiritual evolution? Finding the divine spark both within ourselves and collectivly?
Peace and blessings
Antonio.
--- On Sat, 20/6/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Strange pattern of secrecy/non transparency
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Saturday, 20 June, 2009, 10:57 AM
Yes, and that is a strange fact.
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Strange pattern of secrecy/non transparency
It is not strange, it just doesn't fit ( is not in balance ) with reality as it is at present, not only with me but the whole world...
--- On Sat, 6/20/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Strange pattern of secrecy/non transparency
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Saturday, June 20, 2009, 11:23 AM
Yes, it depends...So you find yourself to be one great "mess"?
Parabrahm allowed the physical to come into existence. Transcended wisdom is certainly strange, do you not think so?
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Strange pattern of secrecy/non transparency
yes, depends how you see it...physically I can only see a mess here on Earth...
--- On Sat, 6/20/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Strange pattern of secrecy/non transparency
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Saturday, June 20, 2009, 8:33 AM
To Judge is to organize or "organize" on a higher level.
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Strange pattern of secrecy/non transparency
Karma is not organizing dear brother, it is the ideas, thoughts and desires which organize. Karma is the Judge...
--- On Fri, 6/19/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Strange pattern of secrecy/non transparency
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Friday, June 19, 2009, 8:59 PM
Dear Bill
My views are:
I perceive, that we define the term "REAL spiritual organization" differently.
The Law of Karma is organizing the world even if you would like it not to do so!
Those groups, which seek to perform their work in accordance with this law are bound to work together. They will also work in groups within groups, within perhaps many groups. When they work together - using multi-communication seeking Liberation you instead, call them followers of the devil as far as I understand your words.
If so, I disagree.
Those who seek liberation are doing their best. And that is allright according to ParaBrahm and the visdom teachings. It is those who turn their backs on working together with people, who are the evil ones.
Yet, I agree on that only being 99.9% good is indeed very bad and quite unfortunate.
:-)
- - -
No matter how a person is performing he or she lives at least partly with a condtioned mind in this physical world and also the astral as well as the mental worlds. When one becomes a Master one controls ones conditioning. That is my view.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Meredith
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Strange pattern of secrecy/non transparency
<So you want to dis-organize everything and throw the White Lodge into the trashcan?>
Many attempts have been made to form a nucleus of universal brotherhood. Perhaps a lodge is one such attempt. An e-mail group might be another. A network yet another. A theosophical society still another. A church? (perhaps a Unitarian Universalist Church?) --a liberal catholic church? a political party? maybe libertarian? All of these appear to be attempts to organize people into loyalists for a particular piece of truth--the piece the original founder picked up.
What is most often lost in these organizations is the individual spirit of adventure and inquisitive nature that caused the the original founder to go looking for truth in the first place. Organizational adherents are made into comfortable followers and finally into believers in a piece of folk-lore.
I believe an organization can exist to foster an environment for individually directed truth seeking --one that makes "original founders" of every member. Such an organization will have no creed or dogma . It will have no leaders and hence no followers. It will be a group of brothers and sisters who inquire insatiably after truth and challenge each other relentlessly not to rest comfortably in yesterday's version of truth.
<I hold it to be true, that there are ordinary organizations and there are those who call themselves spiritual organizations and there are REAL spiritual organizations .>
You are personally free to cling to that truth your whole life.
I believe that truth is a matter of personal discernment and that to organize it is to capture, limit and disguise a piece of it--and eventually to perpetuate that piece as a myth totally absent of the vitality of the living truth.
----------
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