Theos-Talk Archives (June 2009 Message tt00047)

Govert, 
Thanks for the link, a long notation list and reference list also. I have never agreed to any assertion that intends to pin Blavatsky,Theosophy, theosophy, the traditions of the world as regards authentic Wisdom to Fascism, Nazi's and that ilk of interiorized mental obstruction. As I perceive Blavatsky's Theosophical Society one mark of greatness was in it's beginning decades was the policy of universal suffrages of individual participants baggage of personal affinitiess as to religion, politic, racial devotions, and many endless marks of the personal context directly attached to incarnative individual aggregations. But is seems some Authors wish to merge the characteristics of individuals who appeared for a time long or short at a lodge or convention, or were contributing articles representing solely their personal view and not in any way the published view or chartered view of Blavatskys Theosophical Society make the mistake ignorantly or by intention of attempting to make the two seem ot be one. I think only fools will buy that proposition. Always it is the personal "economy" of each individual that is the "originator" even in the case of a German Lodge officer in Germany during Hitlers period. Anton has posted really useful posts about thing he has knowledge about that I appreciated reading. When I first read a volume of Collected Writings and viewed the old photos of the conventions held in India one thing stood out to me seeing the many diverse Hindu Theosophists in the photo was that there sitting before me was a large diverse manifold assembly of people, living human beings who each held sometimes strong disaffections to each others religious sect or caste or clan that in many case had generations of intense differences between them yet there they were sitting together should to shoulder with hardly breathing room between them granting space to each other in a new brotherly manner! It was most remarkable to me and hgelped me to realize what reality was taking place ina new way there. BTW, some time back a member posted a link to a convention and asked where the Raja was, I think he was in the left back rear standing under the tree branch turned 90 degree's to the right not looking directly at the camera. 

>>>HPB gets a pounding from a Prof. Brauen for her poor grasp of Tibetan language and concepts. <<< 

Two days ago I was reading a site for a Tibetan Dictionary that had been Digitized and poste online by a current Scholar, in the poreword at the site he explains that this Tibetan Dictionary ( which was in the vogue during Blavatsky's lifetime contained many erroneus entrys as due to very scant and limited western understanding and even of eastern contributors across much time. However he then proceeds to explain why it is invaluable even now when current Scholarship has advanced to better, more exact definitions that are truer to actual intended meanings in todays arena of our Now.Here is the link: 

A Dictionary of Chinese Buddhist Terms 

>>>http://mahajana.net/texts/kopia_lokalna/soothill-hodous.html<<< 

Regards, 
John 




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Govert Schuller" <schuller@alpheus.org> 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2009 8:04:04 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti at 114 








John, 

We'll probably just have to wait for, or produce ourselves, high-level papers on these issues. 

Meanwhile HPB gets a pounding from a Prof. Brauen for her poor grasp of Tibetan language and concepts. I reread the article in the context of some research on the 14th Dalai Lama and the possibility of him endorsing Theosophy and/or western esotericism in general. 
Question is: what to deduce from his strong endorsement of Brauen's study. 

www.alpheus.org/TS_Open/Brauen.pdf 

(One project might be to collectively create an annotated version of this chapter.) 

Govert 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 3:27 AM 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti at 114 

Govert, 
Thanks for your comments and reply. 

>>>A Theosophical way out of that is of course to claim that she gave the real esoteric teaching<<< 

Well, I seem to recall Blavatsky "qualified" things in saying that she has only been allowed to reveal a small portion of the Secret Doctrine and that in some future when conditions are appropiate more will be made availablle by her successors. This indicates at least to me that what was given though it strongly infects the mind with passionate motivaton and complete delivery of some peoples dedications, what is in their hands and mind is less then exists like the tip of an iceberg so to speak. I think more can be gained by inspection of the now much more available Eastern Documents some I have posted links for here becuase When I read the contents in many instances I have my mind do a pop-up reference to things Blavatsky discoursed upon with almost identicle "Concept" Imagery and descriptiveness. But if people never look to the Parent how can they make any connection with the Wisdom of the Parent? I need to locate Maitreya's Sutra's next, I have wondered now that these works can be read in the west if somehow it abstractly creates the ergos that necessitates some tangible form of Maitreya as substitute. In the Shentong Document Maitreys as adolized and even named "Regent" ( which makes me wonder if Annie Besant had purused a Maitreya Sutra or two. I was impressed long ago with an old testament aphorism "Spite not thy parents in their old age". The Book of Dyzan had Parents. Metaphorically. 

And what is it in the inner esoteric holding that can be said to be a complete Esoteric Teaching and Framed Structured Methodology of System that by evidence has produced Enlightenment? I can't quite make that out just yet. 

Regards, 
John 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Govert Schuller" < schuller@alpheus.org > 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 11:30:41 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti at 114 

Dear John, 

You stated: 

"In spite of assertions that she taught the esoteric versions of so many ancients teachings to us from cross cultural schools I simply see no real correspondence to fact." 

A Theosophical way out of that is of course to claim that she gave the real esoteric teaching and that the known sources were full of mistakes, blinds, translation errors, or other explanations. 

But that's too easy, of course. The big question is about methodology: What is the method proper to Theosophy in establishing the truth or falsehood of its basic claims? And how does that compare with other methods? 

Govert 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:02 AM 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti at 114 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Govert Schuller" < schuller@alpheus.org > 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:19:58 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti at 114 
Govert, 
Thanks for your reply and comments. I don't really have a view that Blavatsky should be viewed as the paramount authority on ancient teachings such as the Prajna Paramita Sutra such as the example I posted of the Tang Dynasty version. In spite of assertions that she taught the esoteric versions of so many ancients teachings to us from cross cultural schools I simply see no real correspondence to fact. How many have ever read The Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch of the Mahayana School? I have strong reservations to claims that extinguish all other known contributors and then place authority in a single modern personage. I do see her referencing throughout aphroisms, slokas, metaphysical ideas , concepts etc, but she was taking most of these from known texts she had access or exposure to some that were obscure in the west at that time but not today. At the most she gives partial extracts in small parts but not the complete teaching or texts that have been taught in known schools for centuries in complete form. They were there when she was given access for long before she saw them. In the recent post I think by Daniel there was the statement of one of the Mahatma' in replying to A. P. Sinnett that he had never known about or was aware of the "rounds, circles etc prior to Sinnetts letters to him and he had to learn new ideas he had not previosly had from what he received from Sinnett. I thougth whoa! What is this? Is the Mahatma actually saying that Sinnett was the person that the "Rounds, Globes etc, originally came from and that Blavatsky got that from Sinnett? Saying Blavatsky taught everything is not rational to me at all. I see Blavatsky using concepts of the Non-Dual as primary but that has always been a principle for centuries in the hindu, buddhist, and other teachings and she only gives smal portions and not a full teaching, she only points to kowledge by small but criticly important quotes or extracts or concepts . The difference is most people have zero interest or exposure to anything other than Christianity so cannot know what is old and what is new. 

For instance on the page for the "worldteachertrust that is use of the word "Path" gives an adwaita view and one can compare to KM uses. I Have Krama Kashmir Adwaita, Siva' Adwaita, some Vedanta Adwaita and the work of So. Indian Tirumantiram by Tirumular as well as the Nag Hammadhi Library ( there are Adwaita Nondual Texts in the Nad hammadhi ) and Gnostic works the Senior metaphysical Principles are much the same or even identical in each due to the reality that origin is beyond the mind of mankind as source. In Blavatskys works are small excerpts of these works. Another thing is the Kalachakra Teaching which is in the Tantric paradigm and which Blavatsky was taught and then taught in certian small portions particular to the cycles and also the Dalai Lama and Tashi Lama taught this teaching which is from the Tantric School , not all tantric teaching are aligned to sexual ideas contrary to what theosophists are happy to tell otherwise. 

If one read over time comparitive works from Mahayana, Tibetan Lamaism, Hindu Schools of various advocacies even G.R.S. Meads Upanishads and other works which Blavatsky makes brief excerpts of, one can then connect a fuller teaching than the "gloss". I don't seem to be convinced that even in the inner group or the esoteric sections that profound teachings are there. In fact the mutilations I have read by some personages are major to me based on just what this small mite can cognize about. The "arhat" thing is one example In Mahayana there are four stages of the Arhat realizations and one can get a fuller reality by reading several Mahayana Sutras, all are called stream swimmers. Another thing is the Bodhisattva ideas. In Mahayana like in many other comparitive sytems cross culturally there is the Triple kingdom characterized in Mahayana by three stages of Nirmanyana, Bodhisattva , and Buddha each having different habitations, Nirmanakaya can be Physical, Subtle realms, but Bodhisattva in Mahayana Ch'an in full stage ten of the Bodhisattva Mind has residence in the Sambhogakaya vehicle and resides in Sambhoga Realm and no longer has extension to earth plane, for this reason Maitreya B odhisattva resides in the Tushita heaven awaiting his incarnation at a future time as a future Buddha. And then there is the Dharmakaya Vehicle which has habitation restricted to the Dharma Realm in it's absolute form Here is a link for just one of the Buddhist Glossarys of many online where one can read the defintions and compare to what Theosophical appropiators make claims of; 

Buddhist Door Glossary A - E 

>>> http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/common/sources/glossa-e.htm <<< 

You know in the entire History of Buddhism from 600 B.C. to Theosophical Society there was realized and attained there are only 16 recognized "Arhats" by Canon after the three turnings of the wheel ( plus two there are not on the recognized who are Hindu that are alledged to peretually reside in a certain Village in India ) . Only 16 out of many millions of stream swimmers, monks nuns , lay people. And then Besant appropiates at will claiming the king of the world told her to make 12 more lol ! Yet no one here seems to think that is any radical departure or even rediculous and offensive because basically 0ver 90 % haven't any basis to make a judgement in their personal copmparitive study exposure so they align to Patanjali's "Ignorance" . 

Well, I am probably most boring here so I will zip it up for now, I have to resist the ideas arising one after another lol. 

Regards, 
John 

Dear John, 

Yes, sounds like a worthy investigaton. Compare and compare. 

Any congruencies you found which stand out? 

My interest in this context would be Advaita as the claim is made that K 'reverted back' to that philosophy when no longer overshadowed. 

At the same time I learn from HPB that there is erroneous exoteric and correct esoteric Advaita and when I apply the few examples she gave I found that Theosophy seems to correspond to the esoteric version and K to the exoteric one. 

This was very helpful in my quest for an esoteric understanding of K. 

Govert 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 10:55 PM 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti at 114 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Govert Schuller" < schuller@alpheus.org > 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 3:43:23 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Theos-World Krishnamurti at 114 
Govert, 
I would rather see people who wanted to locate historical precedent that aligned to his pov philosophy that contain contents there state the simular such as adwaita, dattatreya, prajna paramita hrdhyam. 

>>> http://www.purifymind.com/PrajnaParamita.htm <<< 

>>> http://www.worldteachertrust.org/bk/dattatreya/index.html <<< 

>>> http://www.kheper.net/topics/Trika/Pancakrtya.html <<< 

Just my personal pov, here and there in things Krishnamurti says I can relate to when reading things I recall reading in works that long precede he and also Madame Blavatsky. 

Regards, 
John 

Wow, 

Just realize it's Krishnamurti's birthday today. 

He saw the light of day 114 years ago. 

May he rest in peace, and come back to finish the job. 

Meanwhile I'm sure that a whole new civilization will crystalize around the complex phenomenon that he was. Somewhere I depicted that phenomenon as consisting of a series of concentric rings with in the middle his experience of the sacred, then his charisma, then his teachings (first the videos than the books), his relations and audience, the formal organizations like the foundations and the schools run by his friends, then the communities that will arise around those and, when sufficiently multiplied, their politic interactions, and, when the globalized Judeo-Greco-Christian civilization disintegrates, it might provide the new political and cultural leadership to step in the vacuum as the Catholic Church and the monestaries and local Christian communities did in the West when the Roman Empire crumbled. These rings are thus both spatial, from K's head to the whole globe, as well as temporal, as a sequence of historical and futural occurences. I hope scholars of all kind will warm up to the idea as they can investigate the gestation and growth of a brand new civilization from up close. 

Govert 

P.S.: Just in case Krishnamurtianity will be run by fundametalists who feel irritated by Theosophists based on a narrow reading of K's anti-theosophical remarks, I hereby propose the formation of a secret society to help any and all esotericists when the heat of prosecution might become a little much. We might need something like that in a future incarnation. 

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