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Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar

May 17, 2009 06:36 PM
by Cass Silva


lol




________________________________
From: "Augoeides-222@comcast.net" <Augoeides-222@comcast.net>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 16 May, 2009 3:57:24 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar





Hmmm, 
The first world convention of "Umbrella Holders" ??? 

Regards, 
John 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MKR" <mkr777@gmail. com> 
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 10:39:12 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 

Airfares to India is going down and there are direct flights to Chennai. Let 
us all go and take advantage of the overshadowing! !! 

mkr 

On 5/15/09, Drpsionic@aol. com < Drpsionic@aol. com > wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> I think it will be the next GC meeting. That should be fun. 
> 
> Chuck the Heretic 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 5/15/2009 6:13:14 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
> silva_cass@yahoo. com <silva_cass% 40yahoo.com> writes: 
> 
> OK, OK, when and where is your next overshadowing being held!! lol 
> 
> Cass 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __ 
> From: " _Drpsionic@aol. Drp <_Drpsionic% 40aol.Drp> _ (mailto: 
> Drpsionic@aol. com <Drpsionic%40aol. com>) " 
> < _Drpsionic@aol. Drp <_Drpsionic% 40aol.Drp> _ (mailto: Drpsionic@aol. com <Drpsionic%40aol. com>) 
> > 
> To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com <theos-talk% 40yahoogroups. com>) 
> 
> Sent: Thursday, 14 May, 2009 2:26:12 PM 
> Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 
> 
> No, I passed. The World Teacher begins his work after the 75 year and I 
> joined the TS in 1978. 
> 
> Chuck the Heretic 
> 
> In a message dated 5/13/2009 7:19:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
> silva_cass@yahoo. com writes: 
> 
> Then you failed the world teacher test! 
> 
> Cass 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __ 
> From: "_Drpsionic@ From: "_Drpsionic@ <WBR>aFrom: "_Drps 
> <_Drpsionic@ _Drpsionic@ <WBR>aol. Drp_ (m_Drpsionic> 
> To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ yahoog 
> Sent: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 2:39:13 PM 
> Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 
> 
> 1949 
> 
> Chuck the Heretic 
> 
> In a message dated 5/12/2009 6:24:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
> silva_cass@yahoo. com writes: 
> 
> What year were you born????? No falsifying the dates now!! 
> Cass 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __ 
> From: "_Drpsionic@ From: "_Drpsionic@ <WBR>aFrom: "_Drps 
> <_Drpsionic@ _Drpsionic@ <WBR>aol. Drp_ (m_Drpsionic> 
> To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ yahoog 
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:37:23 PM 
> Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 
> 
> Actually all us World Teachers have been inveterate pranksters come to 
> give 
> the world laughing gas for the soul. 
> 
> Chuck the Heretic 
> 
> In a message dated 5/11/2009 10:47:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
> silva_cass@yahoo. com writes: 
> 
> lol. I don't expect they would all be world saviours - just messengers 
> Cass 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __ 
> From: "_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- From: "_Augoeides- 
> 
> 
> 2 
> <_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- _Augoeides- 222@Au> 
> To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ ya 
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 1:02:21 PM 
> Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 
> 
> Cass, 
> If a "world teacher" came at the end of every century in the form 
> characterized we would have had 20 more Jesus's all lined up in serial 
> order as 
> "World Saviors" a label that I think did have some existance for a while 
> during Besant - Leadbeater era. I never have seen any such thing in my 
> coursing 
> of histirical records. Who has the list? 
> 
> Regards, 
> John 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Cass Silva" <silva_cass@ silva_cass> 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:52:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
> Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 
> 
> As you say K did not repudiate the WT project what he 
> repudiated was his part in the project. I am not surprised that JK 
> initially thought of himself as the new World Teacher operating out of 
> Adyar - if 
> he had run with that idea he would have been glorified and sanctified by 
> theosophists - I admire and respect him for walking away and believe that 
> his 
> conscience 
> would not allow him to take on a role he knew he was not fated for. 
> 
> If we are to rely on what Blavatsky gave us on a coming teacher we must 
> also rely on her timeline. 
> 
> One could say that both Besant and Leadbeater would have been aware of 
> this timeline yet still pre-empted the 'prophesy' of HPB. Blavatsky 
> underlined 
> her timeframe by stating that at the END OF EVERY CENTURY there will 
> come...... 
> 
> One could argue then that Krishnamurti was their choice (AB/CWL)for next 
> world teacher and not necessarily the man predestined to take on this 
> role. 
> 
> Blavatsky also pointed out that IF the theosophical society survived it 
> would be the vehicle for the next 
> world teacher. 
> 
> Besant's comment "Which of us is right only time can show." (12) came back 
> to haunt her! 
> 
> From a dugpa's point of view what better way to fragment the TS than by 
> introducing a 10 year old vagrant to the idea that he was born to be the 
> next 
> world teacher. Did they realise that that they and Leadbeater had picked 
> the wrong candidate or was he the perfect candidate for a means to 
> disenfranchise the TS? They succeeded - the TS is no longer the fortress 
> of truth as 
> it was in 1800 -but has disintegrated into a mish mash of psuedo religious 
> and psuedo theosophical ideas. 
> 
> One must assume that if a world teacher comes at the end of every century 
> - that he is now alive and 
> kicking - and one can assume also that the TS has failed as he is not 
> represented as a theosophist. 
> 
> Cheers Cass 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __ 
> From: Govert Schuller < schuller@alpheus. org > 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:04:14 AM 
> Subject: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar 
> 
> Dear Cass, 
> 
> I have to challenge the idea that K really repudiated the WT project. 
> 
> He did not. He gave it his own interpretation. 
> 
> There might be satisfaction for anti-neo-theosophic al Blavatskyites in 
> the idea that K completely repudiated the AB-CWL additions/changes/ 
> manglings 
> to the original Theosophical program. They think that K's criticisms are 
> an additional vindication for their own anti-neo-theosophic al position. 
> 
> I say, not so fast, for K truly believed that he fulfilled the project 
> even to the point of laying claim on Adyar and the TS as the intended 
> instruments for the coming teacher. 
> 
> K said: "Mrs.Besant intended the land at Adyar to be meant for the 
> teaching. The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is 
> destroyed." 
> 
> I analyzed the statement in my paper on K, tying it back to HPB's prophecy 
> of the 'torch-bearer of Truth.' (full analysis below) 
> 
> Govert 
> 
> ===== 
> Reinforcing this view is an interesting, and at first sight puzzling, 
> remark Krishnamurti made about Annie Besant and the Theosophical Society 
> during 
> an equally interesting conversation in 1979 with his friends, Radha 
> Burnier and Pupul Jayakar, while discussing Burnier's possible candidacy 
> for the 
> presidency of the Theosophical Society. "Mrs.Besant intended the land at 
> Adyar [the T.S. international headquarters] to be meant for the teaching. 
> The 
> Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." (9) 
> This remark contains many assumptions and finds its proper context in 
> Besant's understanding of the mission of the Theosophical Society and the 
> role of 
> Krishnamurti therein. Annie Besant thought she was fulfilling a mission of 
> the Theosophical Society, which was not stated as one of its official 
> objectives, but was given to it by Helena P. Blavatsky--one of the 
> founders of 
> the Theosophical Society and the society's main source of ideas--when 
> she, at the close of her life, announced the coming of a "torch-bearer of 
> Truth" for the later part of the twentieth century. The mission of the 
> Theosophical Society, according to Blavatsky, was to prepare the way for 
> this 
> "new leader" and prepare "the minds of men....for his message." At his 
> arrival the Theosophical Society would be available to him to remove the 
> "merely 
> mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path." Indicating 
> the possibility of a glorious long-term goal of this plan, she states that 
> if "the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its 
> mission...earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century." (10) When 
> Besant was 
> challenged about her involvement in the Order of the Star and her speaking 
> of 
> "the T.S. as being the Herald of the coming Teacher," (11) she defended 
> herself by referring explicitly to Blavatsky's view about the future 
> mission of 
> the Theosophical Society: "My crime is that I share it, and do what 
> my poor powers permit in preparing the minds of men for that coming." 
> Besant wrote that the only difference between herself and Blavatsky 
> regarding 
> the coming of "the next great Teacher" was that "she put that event 
> perhaps 
> half a century later than I do. Which of us is right only time can show." 
> (12) 
> 
> I think it is reasonable to state that the particulars of Blavatsky's and 
> Besant's views were picked up by Krishnamurti during his formative years. 
> He might even have read Blavatsky's statement referred to above. If so, 
> this 
> might provide the ground to put Krishnamurti' s remark in historical 
> perspective, and to explain the underlying structural similarity between 
> his 
> remark and Blavatsky's vision. With this in mind a reconstructed reading 
> of 
> Krishnamurti' s statement would result in the following: "Mrs.Besant [and 
> Blavatsky] intended [subscribed to the view that] the land at Adyar [the 
> Theosophical Society] to be meant [to be available] for the teaching [for 
> the 
> teacher]. The Theosophical Society has failed [did not to cooperate], the 
> original purpose [the mission of the Theosophical Society to herald and 
> aid 
> the teacher] is destroyed [has not been fulfilled]." The point of this 
> digression is to show that implicit in this remark is the self-perception 
> of Krishnamurti as the teacher, who was expected and did come, but found 
> the Theosophical Society not cooperative. 
> 
> ===== 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Cass Silva 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:13 PM 
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 
> Messiah Craze? 
> 
> Quite right Govert, the TS was born in chaos and continues on this same 
> path. HPB told us that her mission was to bring the ancient truths to the 
> western world and to attempt to stem the spiritual materialism promulgated 
> by the 
> roman church and its offshoots. 
> 
> As this was addressed to a western audience, it would require western 
> spokespeople 
> to transmit this knowledge - once the knowledge was given it then appeared 
> that 
> Sinnett and others thought they were more knowledgeable than their 
> teachers. I 
> have heard that the more one learns the stronger the ego becomes - and 
> this is one 
> of the challenges or tests of a chela. 
> 
> HPB unlike Sinnett et al she took those teachings to heart and never 
> waivered or 
> challenged what was given to her by those she considered far more 
> knowledgeable 
> than herself on both spiritual and social questions. 
> 
> Her dissention was mainly against outsiders - but since her demise the 
> dissention 
> has come from insiders - who, in my opinion, distorted the knowledge for 
> their 
> own quodos to the point of making Annie Besant an incarnate godhead. 
> 
> AB and CWL would have been familiar with the teachings on Kali Yuga and 
> would 
> have known that Kalki Avatar would not appear before a million or so years 
> - so 
> either they promoted Krishnamurti as a minor avatar they had no reason to 
> claim 
> a messiah state for him. As the master said, AB was blinded by her own 
> imagination 
> and CWL was just the fellow to bring this imaginative fairytale into 
> reality. JK, himself, 
> recognized this as nonsense and left their mayavic dreams to its founders. 
> 
> I am not convinced that Krishnamurti was overshadowed by Maitreya, but 
> perhaps 
> was overshadowed by his own daimon.? 
> 
> Cass 
> 
> Cass 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __ 
> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org> 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Saturday, 9 May, 2009 12:14:38 AM 
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 
> Messiah Craze? 
> 
> Cass, 
> 
> You say the TS was already in a state of confusion when taken over by AB & 
> 
> 
> CWL or because of them? 
> 
> The outcome of one's speculations about the motives of AB & CWL for doing 
> the WT project all depend on how one would regard the project in the first 
> place. If you don't think it was genuine, then indeed you have to wonder 
> why they were doing it. If you think it was genuine, then a whole 
> different 
> view of their motivations is possible. 
> 
> BTW, it could be argued that the TS was from the beginning in a state of 
> confusion and was badgered by crisis after crisis. 
> 
> Govert 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Cass Silva 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 8:59 PM 
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 
> Messiah Craze? 
> 
> I disagree Govert, the TS was in a state of confusion when taken over 
> by Besant and Leadbeater, I believe, they believed, that a World Teacher 
> would bring the TS back to stability and would increase membership. 
> She was ready to leave the TS and join Krishnamurti - what does that 
> tell us? 
> 
> I was amused by AB turning the world teacher into a'gentleman' with a 
> university education - by doing this she exposed him to a world and an 
> awareness of a world outside of Adyar. I don't think he liked the suits 
> as he got out of them as quickly as he could. lol 
> 
> Cass 
> 
> ____________ _________ _________ __ 
> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org> 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 1:07:59 AM 
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 
> Messiah Craze? 
> 
> Daniel, 
> 
> The WT project in my view was genuine, but had some 'messiah craze' 
> elements, inevitably so given the state of the human psyche. One of the 
> 'craze' 
> elements was indeed the 'apostle affair,' which neither CWL nor K believed 
> in. It came from Arundale's 'crazed' brain. 
> 
> To reason from a few 'craze' elements to the conclusion that it was only 
> 'craze' is as fallacious as reasoning from the belief that the project was 
> genuine and that therefore all elements were genuine. 
> 
> HPB's thoughts on messiahship are helpfull to be extremely cautious about 
> such claims. CWL, AB and K lived up to it to a certain extent. In the end 
> it was K who failed and dragged the TS into a state of confusion and shock 
> it has not yet overcome. 
> 
> Govert 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: danielhcaldwell 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:21 AM 
> Subject: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the 
> Messiah Craze? 
> 
> Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze? 
> ++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ + 
> 
> Annie Besant at her most eloquent best: 
> 
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - 
> "And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message, 
> and some of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great 
> Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, is 
> definitely at the command of the King whom I serve. 
> 
> His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon. 
> Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their 
> chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only 
> the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship... 
> 
> The first two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C. 
> Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini 
> Arundale.... 
> 
> I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our 
> Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle 
> of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as 
> to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his 
> crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King. 
> Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with 
> Himself as the thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do 
> well, for so I am.' 
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - 
> 
> Daniel 
> ____ http://hpb.cc_ _ ( http://hpb.cc_ / ) _ (_ http://hpb.cc_ _ 
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